Episode 60: Rewriting the Rules: From People Pleasing to Sexual Empowerment with Saundra Pelletier

Dr. Mary chats with Saundra  Pelletier, CEO of Evofem and creator of Phexxi the first FDA-approved non-hormonal birth control. 

What you will learn:

• Open communication about sex, needs, and pleasure is critical 
• Women deserve to know their bodies, advocate for what feels good, and unlearn shame.
• How vaginal dryness is affected during perimenopause and post cancer
• Connection to self: If you can’t advocate for your needs in the bedroom, where else are you suppressing them?
• Sexual pleasure is deeply tied to self-worth, autonomy, and nervous system regulation.
• Hormonal methods aren’t bad — but informed choice is everything.
• Women have carried the burden too long. It’s time for better tools and equal conversations.
• We can change the system with men, not against them.
• Most just need education and empathy — not shame or blame.

00:00 Introduction and Warm Welcome

00:49 Revolutionizing Birth Control: Introducing Phexxi

01:10 The Science Behind Phexxi

02:55 Empowering Women with Non-Hormonal Options

06:19 Challenges and Launching During COVID

16:56 The Importance of Sexual Health and Communication

24:41 Personal Journeys and Overcoming Shame

25:28 The Importance of Standards

26:11 Recognizing Red Flags in Relationships

27:57 Educating Men on Women's Health

29:17 Raising Awareness Through Education

32:09 Empowering Future Generations

36:36 The Evolution of Women's Roles

42:41 The Efficacy of Non-Hormonal Birth Control

46:47 Concluding Thoughts and Contact Information

You can learn more about phexxi here: https://www.phexxi.com

Her company Evofem: https://www.evofem.com

IG: https://www.instagram.com/saundrapelletier/

Want support for perimenopause that goes beyond hormones?

Whether you (or your clients) are taking HRT but still having symptoms, not ready for it, or can’t tolerate it...there’s more we can do.

I’ll be sharing practical tools from a movement and rehab perspective, focusing on the nervous system, fascia, lymph, viscera, and musculoskeletal system.

If you want updates on workshops, resources, and strategies to support this phase of life more fully, would love you to join my email list.

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I’ll see you in 2 weeks!

PS:

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome back to TMI talk with Dr. Mary. I'm your host, Dr. Mary. In this episode I brought on Saundra Pelletier. She's a CEO of Evofem and the crater of Phexxi the first FDA approved non-hormonal birth control on the market. We dive into talking about shame-free sex, body autonomy, communication and relationships, and how if we can't communicate sexually, how this can overflow into other aspects of our lives. I believe this is super important to note in perimenopause because we're starting to really intuitively understand our bodies I like to think of the perimenopause journey as the journey to inner wisdom to get us to the point where we understand our bodies can advocate for ourselves. And how it shows up in the bedroom is often a reflection of what we're going through personally. And if we can't speak our truth there, where else are we not doing that? And as healthcare and movement professionals, I believe it's important that we know this ourselves so that we can communicate it to our clients as well. And we also jump into how Phexxi works, but a little bit of. Background on Saundra. Saundra is an expert in women's health with an insight driven by intensive consumer research and deep commercial experience in the global markets with products addressing women's health spanning in every stage of the reproductive cycle from puberty to menopause. Her career in the pharmaceutical industry has spanned more than three decades during which she has launched. Pharmaceutical brands worldwide and expanded indications for female healthcare brands in multiple countries. She's a published author, a TEDx and keynote speaker and executive coach, and a staunch advocate for innovation in women's healthcare during her 10 year tenure as CEO and president and executive director of FFM Biosciences. She has led the company through its transition to the public market, the approval of Phexxi the first and only hormone free on demand prescription con contraceptive vaginal gel, and the acquisition of of so OEC and FDA approved single dose oral anti-microbial agent for the treatment of the two most common sexual health infections, bacterial vaginosis, and trichomoniasis. And this has led to four consecutive years of net sales growth. And so in this episode we talk about why Phexxi is a game changer, how this can be helped for people with hormone sensitivity, cancer history, and even now. So. More people using GLP ones that can't use regular hormonal birth control. We have an open conversation about sex and pleasure and being able to communicate that and how that's critical. And again, as I mentioned, how that also shows up in different aspects of our lives, how women deserve to know their bodies and advocate for what feels right. And that also means that we have to unlearn shame. We also have to advocate for our needs in in the bedroom and also where else are we suppressing them if we aren't? How sexual pleasure is deeply tied to self-worth, autonomy, and nervous system regulation. How all hormonal birth controls are not evil, but informed choice is super important for people to know that they have options, how women have carried this burden for too long, and that it's important that we have better tools to help us and and our fellow women. How we can change the system with men and not against them. I know a lot in the women's health movement or just in women's movement, we're angry for a long time, but a lot of times men just don't know. And if we can embrace them with empathy and education rather than blame, I be truly believe we can make Viggo strides in the women's health movement. And overall, I really enjoyed this conversation. She's super easy to talk to. She's a true trailblazer for women's health Without further ado, we'll jump into the episode. I really hope you enjoy it, and as always, I appreciate you supporting and listening to my podcast.

mary: 4:15

Welcome back to TMI talk with Dr. Mary where we dive into non-traditional forms of health that were once labeled as taboo or dismissed as Woo. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Greenberg. I'm an orthopedic and pelvic floor physical therapist who helps people navigate perimenopause by addressing the fascia. Lymphatic system, musculoskeletal system, viscera and the nervous system. My whole body approach goes beyond hormone replacement therapy, showing how movement and rehab professionals can play a much bigger role in this process. And now we'll start our next episode.

Audio Only - All Participants: 4:50

Welcome to the show, Saundra. Thank you very much. I'm really happy to be here and yeah, I'm thrilled. So nice to talk to you. Yes. And for those of you that can't see her red glasses, she is rocking some red glasses today. Yeah, thank you. I'm really into these red glasses with the pink shirt and hairy earrings. Just for Mary, just for the record. But yes, you know, we dress for, I Dress for women. Most women, I think dress for women. But I wore this outfit for you today, Mary, just so you know. Oh, I should have wore something fun for you. I'm sorry I didn't. It's okay. It's okay. Come on. It's your show. So you're letting me be on your show, so I'm supposed to present this way, but yes, it's good. Well, I love what you're doing with Phexxi and for those of you that don't know, Phexxi is in the first non-hormonal birth controls on the market. And I would love to for you to explain what Phexxi is. Yeah, so thank you by, by the way, for asking. So Phexxi is the first and the only. Birth control that has no hormones, no systemic activity in the body, and you only use it when you have sex, and here's why that matters. 1960 was when birth control was first introduced 1960. Since that time, every company. Has come out with different ways to put synthetic hormones in your body. You can put synthetic hormones in your body in 33 different kinds of birth control pills. You can have patches, you can have rings, you can have IUDs, you can have injectables, you can have rings in your vagina. But the only company that said, you know what? That's kind of crazy. Women don't have sex every day. Why do they need to take a medication every day and put a synthetic hormone in their body every day, year after year, after year? Some women take birth control for 10 or 15 or 20 years. So quick, quick side note, rush University in Chicago developed this drug. They were looking for something for HIV prevention and they discovered that the way the drug worked. Prevented pregnancy. So they'd said, oh my goodness. So all the vaginas of women, yours and mine have a pH of 3.5 to 4.5. That's it. When sperm enters, your pH goes up. If you're not protected to seven or eight. And you get pregnant. But what Phexxi does is the three ingredients. L lactic acid, citric acid, potassium by tartrate. They help your body maintain your natural pH. Doesn't change it, but your natural pH is inhospitable to semen. Kills the sperm and you don't get pregnant. And so we're really excited because look, it's not just about having no hormones, it's about empowering women. Men have had condoms for 150 years, right? Empowering women to have sex on demand, right? Something they use only when they need it, and something that they won't have to suffer every day from side effects, some of which they don't even realize until 10 or 15 years later. Yeah, there's a, there's a ton. I, I've never been able to tolerate hormonal birth control at all. And even IUDs I couldn't tolerate. And they were like, you're kind of SOL. I'm like, O okay. I mean, I, I've got my tubes tied now, but, uh, so that's taken care of. So, but yeah, it's so interesting how we've normalized this and I'm not. Saying all birth control is bad. But what I'm saying is the consumer needs to be aware of what is actually going into their body and having them make an informed choice.'cause there's plenty of people out there like me that can't tolerate birth control either. My goodness. You ready? I'll tell you this, 23 million women that can't or won't. So think about this. 900,000 women who get cancer every year shouldn't use a hormone. Again, when women are breastfeeding, they don't wanna have hormones in their breast milk. But the biggest thing is when women are on other medication, you don't want synthetic hormones messing with the efficacy of your other medication. What if you're on antidepressant? What if you're on anti-anxiety? And so doctors really love it when women are on a lot of. Other meds that Phexxi does not interact with that. And a lot of women now are on GLP ones for weight loss. I was gonna say that. Yeah. For diabetes, right? Yeah. And by the way, just so you know, it's in the fricking label. It's in the label. It says, if you are on hormonal birth control, you must use a backup method for the first four weeks. And then every time we tate. If your dose up because it makes your birth control less effective, and you see on social media all of these women getting pregnant on GLP one, it's just the last thing they want is to get pregnant. So it's kind of bananas that you're right. We have been sold a bill of goods for a long time. No one's questioned it. No one's been like, what? That doesn't make sense. So, you know, and, and I would, one quick, I did a talk where I said, if we ask boys to do this, I don't know that fathers, fathers wouldn't let their sons take a medication they didn't even need, if their sons were having side effects. I can tell you that. Right. But it's okay for our daughters. I guess it's okay for us, but I'm, you know, I'm here because you're, you're right. I'm not here to bash other products. I'm here to say, look, if you can't or you don't wanna use a hormone, we've got a product called Phexxi. You don't have to, you can use something that doesn't have hormones if you don't want to. Now you have a choice, you know? No, I think it's funny. It's like, how was this not invented sooner? You know? I mean, it's literally lactic acid is what's in our vagina. And when I saw PhePhexxi I, I was like, how, how is this, is this just came out? How so? I, I, my mind is just boggled is, is. It. That's it. It's just that it's just now coming out. Well, I will tell you this. So we really launched during COVID. We were actually, uh. So as a, a public company, at that time we, we were, we were, well, let me just come right out and say it. This is TMI. We were forced to launch during COVID.'cause our lead investors said, no, you're not gonna wait and hold. And we said, listen, doctor's offices are closed, women aren't even going into the offices. Our sales force cannot do behavior modification. Like, what? We can't do this. And they said. We invested a lot of money to get this drug approved and you will launch it now. So we did. And honestly, when you fumble a launch, sometimes it's hard to recover. But I will tell you this post COVID, I, I really mean this and I, I think I preached to the choir when I say this, women are more rapidly, more consistently getting fed up with. All this garbage that is being delivered to them and that they're being told to do because they're saying, I don't feel great. I don't wanna have headaches every day. I don't wanna have bleeding. I don't wanna have emotional highs and lows. I don't wanna feel like I'm crazy and how is this good for me? And the big deal is, what is this gonna do to me? Five or 10 or 15. What are the un what? What are the unintended consequences of taking a drug that I don't even need to save my life? What are the unintended consequences and what am I gonna do about those? You know? Mm-hmm. Which is a heavy thing to say, but true. Well, it's also the thing that's interesting is that we're just blindly putting women on birth control, right? And there can be birth controls that can be helpful for people, but if, say, if somebody's estrogen dominant, so if people are listening, it's basically when your progesterone and estrogen ratio is off and your. Getting more PMS symptoms, you can have endometriosis from it, things like that, right? So they either aren't clearing their estrogen appropriately, or they don't have enough progesterone either way. The answer is not to give estrogen necessarily, right? And so totally like why not more progesterone? Things like that. So there's just so many things that come into play here with us. Just kind of being blind and blind participants to, to what's happening. I have to, and you know the crazy part too is that it's still hard'cause a lot of, well my mother didn't know how her body worked. She didn't teach me how my body worked. Right. And a lot of young women don't know how their body works and there's a lot more accurate and factual information you can get and find. But to your exact point, right. All the hormones that are, we are. Made up so different than men and all the research and all the clinical studies in early days were all done on men Eat ready birth control studies were done on men because it was believed that all women were, were smaller versions of men. I mean, can you imagine how crazy that sounds right now, that men who can't even get pregnant, they were tested for birth control. You're like, what? Yeah. Yes. Really? Wow. I, I swear it is. It's crazy. It is actually flat, crazy. And so that's why when we were bringing this drug to market, when people would say to me, why are you doing that? There's so many choices. There's a thousand choices for women to not get pregnant. And I said, just women don't need more choices. They need better ones. They need better choices. Right. What are you talking about? You know, I said like, do you have a vagina? Okay, well you don't, but I bet your mother did. You have daughters. They do. Your wife probably does your significant other and, and, but it took me a long time, by the way, to one, get the courage. To say stuff that bold to investors and two, realize that was important because at first they'd be like, why do I care about that? I don't need birth control. Or, what do I care about? Women's health doesn't impact men. We wanna invest in things that impact the whole population. Diabetes, heart disease, you're like, women are half the population. And by the way, we're the healthcare decision makers, not just for ourselves, for our kids, for our husbands, right, for our parents. So anyway, it took a long time for me to. Get people to listen to me because, you know, they would just tune me out. Like, you know, like, we don't care what you have to say, but when you pull on their heartstrings and talk about their daughters and do they really want their daughter taking a synthetic hormone, it, that's what really, really got to people. They were like, holy smokes. You know, like. Okay, that doesn't make sense. You know, my daughter's not having sex every day. And I mean, that just logical statement, by the way, is such a, I don't know. You know, look, if I could go back in time, which, you know, I'm, I just turned 56, Mary, if I grew up birthday, thank you. But you know, I started birth control when I was like 13 years old. Wow. 13. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, can you imagine if I hadn't put all those hormones in my body? I mean. I don't know. I might be like Sigmund Freud, but I'm not, I can tell you. Just kidding. Well, I, I, I, we, we've normalized SSRI Chronic SSRI use, we've normalized oral birth control use and. What we're seeing is kind of this aftermath and you know, a lot of times too, like you were saying, there are some people that can't take it, right? Like I don't respond well to it. People on GLP ones, other medications, um, you know, people who, they've had cancer or there. They're contraindicated to taking hormones. Um, and I know that some of that, I don't know how much is true. I haven't looked too much into the data on how that's shifting, at least more for the perimenopause hormones, so the non-birth control hormones. But I haven't dove too far into that. Um, but. I do think it's important that, so a lot of people that listen are, can be consumers, but also people that are health and wellness professionals, and I think it's important that we know that this exists for our for our patients and clients well. Can I just tell you this, just for that purpose alone if, if people, you know are talking, thinking about this for their patients. So a prescription xi is a box of when you look, when you get it, and I know people are just listening, but it's a box of 12 prefilled applicators. Each applicator has a shelf life of four ears. When you open this box. When you open it inside, each of the applicators is individually packaged, so women can put it in their pocket, they can put it in their purse. The applicator looks just like a tampon. In fact, it's smaller than a tampon. But the big thing is, is that you put in, so it's an applicator with five milliliters of gel. It was designed so sperm to product ratio, five milliliters. And why I show people, and just for those of you listening that can't see. It's a white applicator with a pink cap. You have to take off the pink cap for the gel to get out. And I'm showing Mary just because I want her to see, but the five milliliters is a very small amount, but I'm turning, I'm putting this on a. Sort of a piece of plexiglass, but when I turn it upside down, what you see is that it's viscous. It's bioadhesive, meaning women are not gonna use something that leaks out. I mean, who would, but this stays inside your vaginal cavity. And what's awesome,'cause you brought up perimenopause, that's why made me think of it. A lot of women with vaginal dryness, they love the lubricating properties and there's no odor. There's no taste. And women who've had cancer, I've had cancer. I'm like the Sahara Desert. I really am. I mean, I've got vaginal. Chinas like, I don't wanna talk about Mary, but I mean these lubricating properties are awesome. And the crazy part is that young women say to me, I'm talking young women in their twenties. They're like, what? We use lubrication all the time. Well, you know what? And I put it in right in front of my partner. This I can put in, I'll have my partner put in my applicator, and I'm like. Really, because we had some male investors say, no, no, no one's gonna use this. It's gonna interrupt intimacy. And I said, what? I said, women go and pee before sex. They, what about putting on a condom? Like, yeah. Right. And so, and, and people were like, yeah, no, it does not interrupt my intimacy. But the lubricating properties are super cool. And the other thing that just to say. Let's say you go to your doctor or you're, you do it on telemedicine, you can go on Phexxi.com and get it shipped to your house and you say, I have sex more than 12 times a month. They say, okay, well your monthly prescription is two boxes of 12. It doesn't have to just be one box. It could be two boxes. You know, so, so the cool thing is that it's lubricating. Okay, wait. There's one other thing I gotta tell you that I can't forget. We have a study in the Journal of Sexual Medicine and it talks about pleasure. You know why it's cool. All birth control is marketed, fear-based. You don't wanna get pregnant. You don't wanna get pregnant, you don't wanna get pregnant. I mean. How the hell can women relax when they're like, oh my god. So, you know, we wanna be like, listen, what a concept. You should enjoy sex and it's lubricating so it will enhance your sexual pleasure. So we did a study on sexual pleasure, and it was proven that both the male and the female partner had an enhanced sexual pleasure because of the lubricating property. As of phexxi. So I love that. Yeah, me too. I'm like, hello. I love a little dance you're doing. You're like, thank you. Thank you. I know, I love that. Well, you know what, it's, I've been in women's health. I mean, probably I've been in women's health my whole life, but literally my whole life and I have brought so many different women's healthcare products to market. And never have I been able to talk about women should have pleasurable sex. I mean, I know it sounds so common and basic, and people are like, duh. But. That's not how we promote it. The burdens on the women, right? Put these big cement shoes on and carry some cinder blocks on your shoulders. Women, you're the one that has to be responsible for not getting pregnant. So to talk about something that's cool and sensual and no side effects and lubricating, it's kind of like a Christmas miracle. Oh, totally. And I even think it's still, I mean, I was born in 86 and. I grew up in a super hyper religious community, so talking about sex, I never got sex ed like ever. So, and it's, it's so interesting because being in pelvic health, so many women still struggle to tell their partner, even their husbands of, of years and years and years, or even long-term partners, or even whoever their partner is that they wanna have sex with, telling them what they like. Oh, like, like, I'm allowed to do that. And, and I'm like, yes, you, you, you have the right to say, slow down. Put your hand here. This, you know, try this. Explore for yourself. Ask for what you want. Because my issue with the pornography industry and just TV in general is a couple like. A man and a woman will just start making out and all of a sudden a penis inserts into a vagina. And then she has some crazy orgasm within like one minute, which is so fucking insane. Unrealistic. Yes, yes. Right, exactly. I'm like, yeah. Do you have a magic vagina? Like, how does that happen? Right. Well, then men also then think that they're dick's magic, you know? Yeah. It's like, no. Everybody has different nerve endings. Everybody's body is different, everybody's sensations are different. So what may work for one partner might not work for the next. And so let's remove our egos out of this and realizing that there is not a one size fits all. But I find that that was my impression of sex. And I remember thinking for the longest time, well, I'm not like that, so I must be having sex wrong. Right? And then it perpetuates the, the shame. Being a female, right? It's like maybe if I looked like that girl on tv, maybe I would, you know, it's like, I'm sorry, I'm not gonna like have sex in the middle of a library on like a Tuesday, a public, you know? That's what you see on tv. You. I was joking. I said, how prudish of you. I mean like how's it, right, right. These shows are so bananas. No, I love that you said that. I do. You know what I love is that you said, look, you've got permission. You should say what you feel and what you want. And honestly, the men that I know anyway, they like it. They'd rather know than guess. They're not mind readers. Right. And I mean Right in the minds of women and the bodies, yet they'd rather know. So then. They have a map of how to maneuver. And then if they don't wanna know, that's kind of a red flag. You know? Not kind of, it is, you know, it's, yes. And so if your pleasure is not a priority for your partner, that's a serious conversation to have. Yep, yep. Exactly. That starts with. Let's break up douche baula. No conversation. Just straight to breakup. Yeah, it's over. Yeah. No, but you're right. Yeah. I, I loved that, that if they're not interested in your pleasure, right. Because think about it, but for so long it has really everything you're right. Has been perpetuated about them and, and yeah. But I love that you encourage women to say what you want and where to touch and how to feel and slow down. And you know what your comment about nerve endings. Your comment about nerve endings also, I think is a good narrative for women to be able to have that conversation with men so that they even hear right. Their penis, uh, penises are all different, right? They're not identical, right? The nerve endings are different and. And I think that's, I don't know why I like that. I'm gonna steal that and keep that, by the way. Good. Thank you. Thank you. I'm taking it because it's a good way to talk to men without them feeling defensive. You know, ego, it removes their ego. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they're also prime, like I don't. You know, I feel like a lot of the movement now is anti-men and there's a lot of really solid men out there that, and then there's also men that are just unaware that they're perpetuating the patriarchy and the stuff that does harm them too. Yep. And so there's a lot, like nobody benefits from this. Like there's not a benefit. Men might in certain aspects, but then, you know, their emotional health declines'cause they're not allowed to be upset or cry. Right? Like that's what they've been taught. You know, I'd still rather be a woman than have a oppressed emotions like that. And definitely carry around chronic anger, which, you know, we all have some things that we need to process, but there's. My, my thing, it's funny how I really started a lot on educating on sexual health and I was like, I wanna educate on this.'cause I lived in so much shame and I constantly had pain with sex and I didn't enjoy it until I started saying, screw it. Like I'm un I'm gonna learn from an objective point of view, not what. You know, a strict religious community taught me not to do right, or to hide my body, and my body is shameful. Like, I'm not doing that shit. Like my body is, it's not, you know, it's, it's not something to be shameful about. But at the same time, then I started realizing, well, so much of sexual pleasure is connection to self. So it's like so much deeper, right? Because it's like if you can't just be with your body and communicate your needs, where else in your life are you not doing that too? Wow. Okay. That. That is awesome and heavy and important. That has got to be repeated because I am telling you, and I love the whole thing, so much of sexual pleasure is connection with self. I mean, that's pretty profound and important. And that like really kind of hit me like, whoa, that's a serious thing to contemplate for women. Right, and and in what other areas? Right. Are you doing the same thing? It's like. Huh, I like that. That's very. Well, because that's literally what it was for, for me, was the more you start understanding your body, the more you understand why it reacts in certain ways. And so you are your full self. You're not just the person in the bedroom. So if you're not confident and. Speaking what you want outside of the bedroom. Right? Maybe that's another layer.'cause it's extra vulnerable in the bedroom. So maybe people practice that outside, like asking their partner, Hey, can you grab me a glass of water? Like start easy p Like something little, right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah, but that's kind of where I,'cause I wanted, I was talking so much, my whole career was about like sexual health and then I was like, wait a second, there's this deeper. So I, I like to thread it all with kind of deeper connection to self because when you have that, you're more confident in your body, more sexual, more apt to, um, speak your truth. Yeah. I love that. I do. I love it. You know why I, I love it because it, yeah, it takes it from this very transactional event, right? To something that's so much more soulful, and I love that. That's cool. I love that a lot. No, I do. I love it so much. You don't know. I'm like one of these people now, Mary, I'm gonna be talking about this now to everybody I talk to for days and days and days, and they're gonna be like, yeah, I am. I am. Because you know, it's like. When some things are, they really get you in a positive way. You're like, whoa, I gotta talk about this to all these people that I care about and put this in their brains also. So yeah, that was awesome. Thank you. Of course. Yeah. Well, it's something that I've had to learn in my own journey, overcoming a lot of. A serious sexual shame, lack of connection to self, never enjoyed sex, got cancer, you know, all the things and, and when you sit with it, and you're a cancer survivor as well, but I don't know what your experience was like, but I was like, I'm tired of living for everybody else and if, if my partner does not prioritize what I like sexually. I cannot be with them. And that can look like you tell them and they seem receptive and then they don't do anything. Mm-hmm. That's also it too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. And then, no, no change. I've had that as well. That ended relationship well. Yeah. I'm glad. I'm glad as it should have. But you know what, no, it's true, right? If I think so. Look too often we settle, right? I have this sign. In my office right here, it says, strong women don't have attitudes. They have standards. And it's like, look, standards are not bad. Why are standards bad if your pleasure can't be prioritized? I mean, I mean, you know this, come on, we, there's so many much information about girls and women being raised to be pleasers and mediators and martyrs. Oh yeah. And it's in our subconscious and all this crazy stuff, right? And it's like. We matter too, right? We should decide what we deserve and we deserve to have someone care about our sexual pleasure. And look, that message is, and you know what I love? It's true is that, and if you have a partner that is not receptive, they just give you lip service and they don't act, or they're not even interested, right? That's a real red flag. It's such a red flag, right? You're like, Jesus, how selfish can you be? Well, again, it bleeds into other areas too, like maybe other aspects of your life. You say that something that you like and then they don't do the same. It's, I think the thing that's interesting about sex is we just think it's like this little piece of us over here when it encompasses all of us, like. We are sexual beings and it's who we are. And so, yeah, I think there's, there's a lot with that. And then like to the point of the guy that was telling you that this isn't gonna affect intimacy time, shooting that thing up into the vagina is a lot quicker than rolling up a condom on a penis. And that person was probably like, well, I don't wanna wire a condom. It's like, well. You know Exactly. Well, and yeah. Well, you know what else too, I have people say, well, you know, uh, we, we get along great. We're like best friends, you know, we have a, we have a, a shitty sex life. But, you know, we we're like best friends and it's like, but to your point, it's all connected or we have amazing sex, but that's it. Right? There's no connection outside of, of the sec, you know, of the bedroom, so to speak. And. That's messed up. Right? That's messed up. Like the whole thing should be a connection. You know? It's like a Right. We're sexual beings and yeah. That's a very, very interesting look. And the other thing is that includes men and women. Like you're not saying this is about women or men, right? This is about the connection between the people, men, women, whether you're with a woman, man, whatever. Exactly. Well, I think the issue, I think that's happening right now is a lot of. The way that women's, the women's health movement can be is kinda like in your face to men. Like, do this or you're an asshole. It's like, okay, let's like, how about, let's kind of slow down a little bit, right? Like, let's like have deeper conversations versus. Shoving out all of the stuff that we've been oppressed by for all these years. Right? Like, how about like we have calmer kind of more loving conversations versus kind of coming at, because that's my, that's my issue sometimes with a lot of this stuff about women's health is like us getting angry at men. It's like that's not the solution. It's educating and coming and meeting them with like compassion. Like, Hey, this is why.'cause a lot of them are unaware. Yes, that true words have never been spoken, right? It's not, yes. I have found that too. It's not that they don't care, it's not that they're not listening, it's that they've never had access to the information. They have no idea. Right. Just like we didn't, just like, we didn't like we didn't have this information until recently either. Exactly right. It's so true. And we're never gonna be able to rise the way we wanna rise if we don't bring men into the conversation. You know? They, they need to know and understand, look as, this is like a totally, I don't even know why I'm thinking about this now that you said this. So I have one child, a boy, he just turned 18, but when he was 12, because there's no sex ed in school. Right. And I raised him as a single mother. Since he was a year and a half old, I decided to hire this healthy chat expert. Okay, this, it's a man and a woman. He talks to boys, she talks to girls, but they could do it together, whatever. And I invited all the boys in his class, every boy in his class, and a parent to come on a Saturday for two and a half hours and okay. He literally said to me. I am never gonna speak to you again. Why are you doing this to me? And I said, honey, I promise you this. If it's terrible, if it's a nightmare, I, I will have like 20 demerits. I will owe you like 10 things. Doesn't have to be presence. I can bark like a dog if you want me to in a public place. Whatever you want, but I promise you, okay, so I, I am not kidding you. Still to this day, some of those boys say. Thank God you did that for us. They, okay. He taught them about menses, about what happens with girls when they have their period. Okay. These boys. All of them were like, oh my God, how can you handle that every month that has to happen? They thought periods were one day they could not believe that. Some girls have them five and six days. They couldn't believe you have to change your path. Okay. The stuff that these boys and. How would they know? Right. Would most of the would little girls didn't know exactly, but I pro it changed the dynamic between brothers and sisters. Parents would send me notes for months and be like, you can't believe how much more compassionate our son is to his sister that he never had the capacity to understand and they didn't know how to say it to him.'cause people don't know what's age appropriate, whatever. So it was really fascinating. Like fascinating to see that they were all. Curious and interested even about their own bodies, right? Mm-hmm. But, but had no clue. And yeah, it was a cool thing, by the way. I mean, there was a couple things I learned. I was like, huh, that's very interesting. You're like, I'm gonna pretend like I knew that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But anyway, but yeah, it was, it was cool to, to, to have that done and, but you know, you're right. They, men that I've encountered for the most part have been. Really interested and kind and curious. And even the ones that wanna joke about it, they're like, wow, I'm gonna be my friend's favorite person.'cause I know everything about a woman's vulva, you know, and her, because, you know, when you teach'em things like that, it's, it's cool. It's good. It's empowering. It's empowering to them too, you know? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So anyway, but yeah, your point's right, is that we need to be open to the idea what we think to be true. May in fact not be true at all. They might really wanna know and we got it in a calm way, not smack'em in the face with it, you know? Well, I think we're ho we're. It's two separate things, right? It's okay to be angry about us being oppressed, right? Like that's okay, but what do you do with that anger? Do you take something from it? Like you've built this company, right? Like I'm empowering women, so what can we take from it and bring forward for the women? Be after us, right? Like, and so there's that, right? Yeah. But it's not, let's scream at them for all of the stuff that. The patriarchy has done over the years. Right. And it's like they didn't start like all this is perpetuated. It's like we don't know what we don't know. And I just find that with all movements is just that we want, or most movements, I don't wanna use absolutes, but like if we come at it like a screaming or forcing it upon people, without an explanation, without the heart, without it being heart-centered. It's just like screaming at a brick wall and we get nowhere. Right? And so it's just like, even like the people that you've, you've said before we got on the call, like we're saying some not so great things, uh, to you because you're trying to empower women, um, in that, well, what are they scared of? Right. You know, that beneath, that's a very wounded little boy and yeah. To, to be that reactive to non-hormonal birth control is kind of wild. Yeah. You know what though? I love that too. I love that because you are right. Look, the one thing Yeah. That I love is that coming at it from a point of being heart-centered and, and recognizing that. Yeah. Why talk if no one's gonna listen? Right? And when you're yelling and screaming and judging and blaming, you know what I mean? It's sort of, yeah. And I, I will say, I, I actually love that sentiment because in the end, if you act calm, right? If you're calm and you know, you, you, you, you know, you build your confidence backbone and you just sit there and you say things that are in a calm. Collected way that are factual it, it either makes them go nuts, so bananas'cause they're just so toxic, or it makes them think, whoa, I gotta like come way down here, you know, and start having a conversation with the person who's. Genuine, really caring about the exchange of information and so, so yeah. It's just because, you know, I deal with a lot of alphas, right? There's a lot of alpha investors. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is like, yes, very, very, and, and sometimes when I know someone's an alpha, I try to, I try to peel that back right away. So I'll go in and say. I want you to know that I've worn my alpha receptor suit today and it is covered in Teflon, so no matter what you do to me, it is going to ricochet off. It may hit, you could hit the wall, I don't know, but I'm just letting you know up front. And sometimes they're like, the woman is so quirky and weird, like, or, or sometimes they'll laugh or, so it just depends. When I, when I, I try to mitigate You're disarming bullshit. Yes, yes. To try to disarm it. You know what I mean? And the people that I've had the most success with, they still now, they're like, remember a few years ago how weird you were? Remember you came in and said all that weird stuff? And I'm like, no, I have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you talk about just me. Yeah. I'm like, hell exactly. Have you met me? What? But yeah, so, but you know, and in the end. Uh, but I'm with you. I'm so with you. You gotta try to figure out what's the way to open communication and, you know. Well, I've just done all of the blaming. I've done all the, the anger and it just, it goes nowhere and then it fuels the inner anger and then you get sick and then the liver holds anger, and then it's just a whole cascade and your liver's your detox system. And so. I have become full on like hippie and I, well, maybe not, I don't wanna use the word hippie, but like, let's look at this, you know, like, let's what actually can help us move forward besides yelling at men, you know, it, there's, there's a lot. And then, and what you're seeing is just like a huge disconnect. You know, I'm seeing a lot of my friends get divorced in their forties because their male partners are not able to communicate and shut down well. They've been people pleasing most of their lives. So then now they're standing up for themselves because they're hitting perimenopause, so their estrogen's declining and they have less tolerance to bullshit. So you're seeing these like dynamic shift and you're seeing a lot of shifting happening in our culture in general too. A lot of women rising up, not tolerating bs. People that have benefited from that are getting nervous, right? And so I'm just here to just. I am interested to see, I'm excited for our future. I know that a lot of it has been at risk with the overturning of Roe versus Wade and other aspects as well, especially in Texas. But I think that there's just strength in numbers and women, they're people pleasing, is falling off the generations below us. Like each generation has less and less, uh, people pleasing. Um, have you noticed that? So much. Yeah. Oh, so, so much. And you know what? So much. And they seem to have less anger. They're, they're clever and they're witty and they're, and they're silver tongue and a. Funny way, and yeah, I, I really have noticed it. And you know what, yeah. I do think that these generations that are, the other thing too was it comes to healthcare, right? They're more empowered. They're smarter. Yeah. They ask more questions. They don't, they don't say, look, I. I'm not gonna use my mother's medicine. You know, my mother didn't know, my mother didn't, didn't believe she had the options or the choices that I know what I have. Right? That's what's also cool is that, and by the way, and if their doctor, if it's a patriarchal situation, they'll find a different doctor. They don't just, they don't just do the same thing, right? Hoping a different result. They say, screw that. I'll find somebody who listens to me and hears me. I'll get the healthcare that I know I deserve, which is also pretty awesome. I like that. I, I think it, you know, I like it because I know some people will be like, Ugh, well they didn't have to deal the stuff that we dealt with. I'm like, yeah. But the women before us paved the way. Like my aunt who's in her mid seventies was, and, and I've had other patients in their seventies saying like, women couldn't play sports when I was a child. Like, I didn't have, we didn't play sports. And I'm like, I am so thankful that the women before me. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Like, thank you because I got to play sports. And that was such a fundamental part of my wellbeing and my livelihood. Like maybe I, I then I, then I had the people pleaser stuff that was passed on to me, okay, fine, well how can we help our future women? And I think that it's, it is cool to see the younger girls just really. Just not have as much of the imposter syndrome, not as much people pleasing. And um, it's a, it's a really cool thing. Well, yeah. And well, yes and yeah. And that they, that whole glass ceiling thing, they're like, what? I don't have a ceiling glass ceilings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And by the way, when people, those are like my best days, you know, like I get asked to go talk to classes and things like that. And, and honest to goodness, it's like. It's really awesome. It's really awesome when I feel like I'm 250 years old, right? And I come from the school of, there was a glass ceiling and they wanna hug me. They're like, Aw, that's too bad. You know? And I'm like, oh my God. It's wild. I think it's, yeah, like being, it's cool being with the different generations. I think you can learn a lot from each other. Yep. Yep. And you know, I mean, and look, and I know we are outta time, but there's this, there's this weird old joke, okay. There's this weird old joke that when I was moving up through pharma, right? And holy moly, when I was growing up in Big Pharma, it was just, my God, it was like the TV show Mad Men, right? Yeah. And I mean, it was just crazy. There was one point in my career. I just wanna tell you a side note, I've actually, I might've admitted this once before. I said I was a lesbian, by the way. I mean, I wasn't a lesbian, but I said I was a lesbian. So my rejection of my male boss wasn't that I was rejecting him, it was that I was rejecting because I liked vaginas, because I knew that if I rejected him, I might get demoted or fired. Okay. Like it was always this like chess game of, you know, how can I exhausting? Oh my God. Like, just drain all the blood from your body, right? Every day. But there was this joke that, okay, wait, I hope I get it right, that a father and a son are in a car accident and they it, the son is in critical condition. The father is in critical condition. They both get rushed to the hospital, they're in separate operating rooms, and the doctor comes in and says, I cannot operate on this boy. It's my son. Okay, now back then everybody's like, oh, the dad was gay. Oh, it's the stepfather. All these scenarios were up. Never saying the doctor was the mother because women weren't doctors. Right. And it was so crazy. So crazy. And it was like one of those. Mind blow, right. The doctor was his mother and we went through the sensitivity training in big pharma, right? To be possibility thinkers. Okay. And out of all the exercises they put us through for seven days. Okay. I can't remember any of'em. I blocked them all out except for that one, because even I was like. Whoa. Even I didn't think that the doctor was a woman, you know? And so, yeah. Yeah, that's easy need to do. Yeah. And, but now I bet you all these young girls I talked to would be like, what? They don't think it, I mean, I've done that. I've done it before where I've had a patient, I'm like, oh, are you a nurse? Uh, and it was, no, I'm a surgeon. I'm like. Oh, foot in mouth right now. And I am a woman, you know? Yeah. And if that came from a man, we would be very angry. You know? It's like, well, we're all shifting. There's a lot that we've been told that we're undoing. And so it's, um, the one thing kind of circling back,'cause I know we're out of time, um, what was going back to PhePhexxi what is the, um, efficacy? Is it okay? Well, okay, I wanna make sure we say that on here just because we talked about it. Yeah. Okay. So listen, this is, I'm gonna tell you directly, not that I would tell you indirectly, but this is gonna sound okay. In the label Xi, in the actual label, if you open up the label, it says, with perfect use, it's 93%. With typical use, it's 86%. Here's what happened in the study. We had. Just under 25,000 acts of sex with less than 1% of pregnancies in the clinical study. If you look at the data in the label, it will show you that we started promoting that. Okay. But when we did our study, the FDA mandated that we count failures of women who did not use the product at all, and women who used the product after intercourse. Of course it's not gonna work if you use it after intercourse, but that was the way the protocol was mandated. That's a fact. Factually evidence, you can find that on the FDA website. We had to count those failures. That's why the label says 93%, but in world, real world usage, real world use, which is also in the label, but they won't let us promote it because we didn't agree to it as an endpoint. 25,000 acts of sex, it was less than 1%. 1% of pregnancies. Our drug has been on the market since 2020. We've had less than 1% of pregnancies in real world use. Wow. Which is pretty significant when you look at how many pregnancies happen with hormonal birth control.'cause most of the time young women forget to take their pill one or two or four times a month. So less than 1% of pregnancies, it's like between, we're killing it. You know what I mean? Because people, yeah. Oh my God, everybody's gonna get pregnant. And I always say to people, I say, listen. If a woman wants a product on demand, it's because she's got this. She's large and in charge. She's got her shit together, and she knows I'm gonna put it in right before sex or any window within an hour. A woman is never gonna choose that. If she says, I want fit and forget, well, you should get an IUD. You never have to think about it. You can't control it. A doctor puts it in and a doctor takes it out. It's okay if you're too busy, your life's too crazy. Get an IUD. Yeah. But if you want on demand and you pick Phexxi. Truthfully, you're not screwing it up.'cause you're choosing it based on your own lifestyle and your own. I don't wanna use hormones, you know? Yeah. Xi's not for everybody. Xi's not for women who want fit and forget. That's okay. But if, but the women who it is for but use it correctly all the time. Which is, well, I mean it's, it's funny like even using it as a lubricant.'cause I'll tell people, um. That have vaginal dryness, like when you put lube at the vaginal opening or on the tip or on the penis, it like all opens up or all comes out right at the opening so it doesn't actually go deeper. Right? And so. I tell them to use lube launchers, which is essentially what the applicant is applicator is. Yes, it's, yeah, it shoots it up into the vagina. So you're getting kind of a duo there. And yeah, like I said, I don't use birth control'cause I don't have to. Yeah. But. Um, but can I tell you? Yeah. But, but to you, like you and I, we both had cancer, right? Yeah. I actually did this little video where I was like, lubrication, lubrication, lubrication. Because like I am, I swear to you, and it's not just my vagina, by the way, I mean like my skin, like anti, I took a horse dose of anti-estrogen right after cancer every day, and I was so obsessed with metastases, right? I was like. Oh my God, my son, I gotta get him through high school. He is gotta go to college. You know, like, yeah. You know, I just can't have, and so I was so upset. So I took this giant dose of anti-estrogen, which made my dryness even worse. Oh. So the Right, the lubricating properties of effects were like, huh, hallelujah. Wow. That is great. Well, I am so I feel like you and I could. Talk forever. Uh oh. I know. I would love, like we could do a whole day. Oh my gosh, yes. Whole day and include day drinking in the afternoon. I can't drink actually after chemo. Really? Yeah. It's, it's a side effect I literally cannot tolerate even I had a sip the other day, an instant heartburn. Yeah. Whoa. You know what? I've actually heard that from other people. That's interesting. You know, unfortunately for, for me, that is, that didn't happen to me. Um. To me, Mary, but, um, I could day drink. I, I have no problem doing it by myself together. It used to be fun for me. Yeah, it used to be fun for me. Um, but Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Um, I will put your contact info or how can they reach you? If you wanna Yeah, they can't, but it, it's, all of it is Saundra Pier, so Instagram, um, Facebook, everything. It's all Saundra Pier. Okay. Yeah. All right. I'll put that in the show notes. So if you all wanna follow her or look up Fexe, I'll put all that information out there. Oh, at fexe.com. pH e.com. They can get fexe through telemedicine ship directly to them. P-H-E-X-X i.com. Awesome. Thank you, you so much. Thanks, Mary. All right. Take care. Bye-Bye.

52:50

Thank you so much for listening to my podcast. It would be a huge help if you could subscribe and rate the podcast. It helps us reach more people and make a bigger impact. I would also love it if you could join my email list, which is LinkedIn, the caption for podcast updates, upcoming offers and events. You can also find me on TikTok, YouTube and Instagram at Dr. Mary pt. Thanks again.