TMI Talk with Dr. Mary

Episode 39: From Burnout to Balance: How to Hear What Your Body is Telling You with Cait Donovan

• mary g • Season 1 • Episode 39

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In this episode of TMI Talk, Dr. Mary discusses how ignoring our body's signals and harboring resentment can lead to burnout. Dr. Mary is joined by Cait Donovan, the host of Fried the Burnout Podcast and author of 'The Bounce Back Ability Factor.'

Cait shares her personal journey from being an acupuncturist to becoming a burnout expert due to her own experiences with burnout and COVID-19 impacts on her business. 

The conversation dives into the importance of body awareness, addressing resentment, and the complexities of burnout, including the role of interoception and emotional exhaustion. Cait emphasizes starting with foundational self-care by acknowledging basic bodily needs and examining underlying resentments to set better boundaries and stop self-neglect. Together, they aim to help listeners gain insights into regaining energy and managing burnout effectively.

00:00 Introduction to Burnout and Resentment

00:37 Meet Cait Donovan: Burnout Expert

01:59 Cait's Journey from Acupuncture to Burnout Education

04:53 Understanding Burnout: Identity Crisis and Emotional Impact

08:28 Eastern Medicine and Burnout: Interoception and Prevention

12:24 Holistic Approach to Burnout: Connecting the Dots

16:07 Challenges in Burnout Recovery: Individualized Treatment

22:24 Understanding Body Awareness and Burnout

23:09 The Impact of Ignoring Body Signals

23:41 Gender Differences in Burnout

24:08 Emotional Exhaustion and Burnout

27:48 Foundational Self-Care Practices

28:45 The Role of Resentment in Burnout

31:28 Overcoming People Pleasing

33:43 Practical Steps to Combat Burnout

36:22 Gathering Data Through Disappointment

41:21 Conclusion and Contact Information


You can learn more about Cait Donovan here, her podcast FRIED: The Burnout Podcast. You can also find here on instagram here 

If you have any other questions or topics you want to talk about, send me a message on Instagram. And if you loved this episode, please leave me a rating and a comment with your feedback. Please share this with your friends and loved ones, too!

I’ll see you in a week!

Audio Only - All Participants:

Hello everyone and welcome back to TMI Talk with Dr. Mary. Today we are going to be talking about how not listening to our body's cues and resentment can cause burnout. And this can lead to a cascade of a bunch of other symptoms. And in my experience, I find this can happen in all different phases of life. But And everybody experiences it differently. So if you feel like you're tapped out, if you feel like you just don't have capacity for anything and you're on edge and you're just not feeling well, this is going to be an episode to listen to. And so today I have Cait Donovan. On the podcast. She is the host of fried the burnout podcast. She's also an international keynote speaker and author of the book bounce back ability factor. Her creative burnout recovery solutions have been featured on podcasts and online magazines, such as. Forbes, NPR, and the New York Post, and is also in companies such as Clorox and Pepsi. On top of all of that is she also is an acupuncturist and blends the Eastern medicine side of this into her burnout program. So without further ado, we are going to move into the podcast.

Ready to tackle the topics that you've been curious about but never felt comfortable asking? With a straightforward, no nonsense perspective on life, blended with candid stories and a healthy dose of humor, Dr. Mary Grimberg cuts through the fluff and addresses the conversations we all need to have on TMI Talk, where no subject is too taboo. Our bodies, our minds, and everything in between. Now here's your host, Dr. Mary.

Dr. Mary:

Welcome Cait to the show. I'm happy to have you here. I'm super excited to be here. Yeah. So we're just going to jump right in with some questions and go from there. Sound good? Let's do it. All right. So we were just talking before we jumped on here about how you're an acupuncturist as well. And so what inspired you to transition from practicing as an acupuncturist to focusing on educating people about burnout?

Cait Donovan:

Two things. I burnt out and COVID crashed my business.

Dr. Mary:

Yeah. I mean, not laughing at

Cait Donovan:

that, but I

Dr. Mary:

just, yeah, I mean,

Cait Donovan:

I, I moved back to the States a year before COVID started and I didn't have a strong enough patient base to last through the pandemic. And I was already building a speaking career after having recovered from burnout and realizing how many gaps there were in the stories that were happening around burnout, especially at the time. This was 20, you know, 2019 I wrote my book in 2018. Um, the, the combination of me burning out, seeing the gaps and then COVID closing down acupuncture for me, it was like, it's, it's now or never time to jump.

Dr. Mary:

Yeah. It's like, it's one of those things where maybe probably in the moment, if this is for like you, like what happened to you is something similar to me is like the doors close and then it's just like, Oh, the options here. Okay. Let's, let's do it.

Audio Only - All Participants-1:

Yeah.

Dr. Mary:

Was that shocking or was it more of, okay, like, how did you take that? Uh, the

Cait Donovan:

switch on an identity level was really hard for so, such a big portion of my life. I was like, well, I'm an acupuncturist. That's what I am. That's who I am. That's everything I am. Herbalist, acupuncturist, doctor of Chinese medicine, you know, and, um. I had fought for it, because so often people are like, Accumen insurance, does that do anything? And I'm like, no, I just take people's money for a good time.

Dr. Mary:

And stick needles in them for fun. And stick

Cait Donovan:

needles in them. And I mean, there are much better ways to earn money, trust me. Like, I would do something else if I was going to be a charlatan. I'd be a much better charlatan than this, um, if I was going to do that. And so, but you do have to, it is something that needs to be defended often. And people don't typically have malintent. They're just actually curious. But you do have to then come up with defenses for this thing that you do. So I had spent so much time fighting for acupuncture. That leaving it behind was, like, a little confusing, a little overwhelming. I was awkwardly happy that I had finished paying off my student loan bills because I felt like at least I paid for my acupuncture degree, which is a master's degree, it's four years long, it's expensive. I paid for that with money that I made doing the thing that I paid to learn how to do. Yeah, so that kind of felt like at least that little bow is tied. But it was a really hard transition.

Dr. Mary:

Well, I think, you know, anybody that's listening to this can also think as well, you know, we're in a time where people are experiencing massive burnout in every aspect of their lives. And a root cause of a lot of this is burnout in the workplace. And so I think. It's good for people to hear like, Hey, I went through acupuncture school, or maybe you went to law school or PT school or whatever school you went to. And you were like, this isn't working for me. And I know that I've seen this in physicians, especially where they're just burnt out, but they went to salt, like so much extra schooling that it's just, I think it's hard to have that shift of being like, okay, I'm not going to practice anymore because I've made this commitment. Right. But. Also, your, your background as an acupuncturist really, even though it's not acupuncture that you're doing now, like that skill set is incredibly useful. So it's transferable, you know, from that

Cait Donovan:

aspect. And this is something that I talk about with my clients all the time. Like the identity, letting go of part of your identity because it's time to pivot into something new is really complicated and involves grief and you can't, if you're gonna do it, you have to accept that there is an emotional component to it that you have to live through. You're not just gonna like change your mind and walk away. Like you're gonna have to go through a process and that's fine. As long as you know it's coming and can prep for it and you have some sort of plan to work through it. But most people that burn out have some sort of identity crisis alongside.

Dr. Mary:

Oh, of course. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, you choose your heart, right? Like for PT, you can go and work in corporate indefinitely for the rest of your life, but like, you're going to be in the clinic like likely 50 hours a week, treating two to four people an hour, maybe more indefinitely. That's hard for a long period of time, or you can branch off on your own and that's going to be hard. It's going to, I mean, there's always going to be hard, but it's going to be harder for a shorter period of time for a long term gain. I think people are so fearful of that initial resistance because if you, if we know what that resistance is going to be there and leaning into it, I saw something today. It was like, it's not courage or fear. It's courage and fear.

Cait Donovan:

Well, I think the thing about when you're burnt out is that that's a really big ask. You don't have the emotional, or physical, or mental, or energetic resilience to do the things that are required to make the bold move initially. You, uh, you, physically, like on a mitochondrial level, you just don't got it. You're tapped out. You're tapped out. You're burnt out. That's literally what it may mean. You're done

Dr. Mary:

toast.

Cait Donovan:

Yeah. You're still alive, but like you're not really living.

Dr. Mary:

Yeah, I, I, I get it. I've, I went through this, you know, I've, I've been through this. This was my 2018 just branching out of corporate. You know, and then, and then there's also different phases of grief and stuff too, as you grow. And then there's a past that like, Oh, even me as a business owner. Now, the way that I look at things, the way that I, that I hire, it's so different than I did, you know, in 2018 and 2019. It's just, there's, there's these insane amounts of growth too, to go through from those steps. And so from, Are there specific, so from an Eastern medicine practice, right, what have you found to be helpful from that level for managing or preventing burnout?

Cait Donovan:

So I'll start by saying that I don't believe for the majority of people that burnout prevention is like really a thing unless you've burnt out and recovered, and then you've put in place efforts and tools to avoid burning out again, but initial burnout prevention, one of the reasons that a lot of people end up burnt out is because they have really low levels of interoception, And this is a brain development issue from childhood trauma. So a lot of people with childhood trauma during any year before the age of nine, during peak neural development, part of their brain won't develop fully. And that part, part of that is what's responsible for your ability. Interoception is your You know this probably, but for other people, interoception is your ability to notice and feel what your body is doing so that you can respond appropriately. It's how you build self trust. It's how you calm your nervous system in the most basic way. Like, people are teaching all these wacky somatic exercises when really you need to like pee when you need to pee.

Dr. Mary:

Oh, totally. I mean, I'm about the somatic stuff myself, but I'm also like, We have to understand why we got to that place. It's like breath work too. Breath work is a tool. Somatic exercises are a tool. Right? I saw something the other day on Instagram that was like, We are not talking about why somebody needs breath work for an hour a day to function. Right? Breath work is wonderful. But it's

Cait Donovan:

magical, so is somatic work. Yes. It is magical. However, if you do that work and then you're still not drinking when you're thirsty, not peeing when you have to pee, not resting when you're tired, not closing your eyes when your eyes are fatigued from looking at a screen, not moving when you're antsy, if you're not heeding the basic core messages from your body of just, for normal level, for normal functioning. If you're not doing that, then a lot of the other stuff doesn't work. So, the, answering the first part of that question, I don't really believe in burnout prevention because most of us are never going to notice that we're on our way to burnout because our interoception isn't strong enough for us to notice all the red flags until every single one of them is up at the same time and they're all on fire.

Dr. Mary:

I mean, it's, it's the pain of it, right? It's, I Maybe there's been people out there. I think I'm a little bit yet to see somebody that hasn't gone through immense amount of pain to make a drastic change. I mean, maybe there, maybe there are people, it has to feel like kind of what you're saying, all the doors close. You're just like, I'm tap. Tapped out. I am done. I can't, I have no capacity. So if you're listening to this, you're like, I have no capacity. I don't want to talk to my friends. I'm up to here at work. My kids always need me. Maybe my partner's there, but maybe they can't show up either. Like we. Um, and, and, and it's hard because I'm doing a lot of inner work to kind of work through this, but I still have my own traumas and my fears and stuff. So when somebody else is burnt out, even though they aren't thinking clearly or stuff, I can still be like, Oh my God. And I have to sit through that and be like, Oh, that wasn't. That wasn't personal, but it felt like that. And so it's also putting out this energy of negativity and anger, and it perpetuates with what's really even going on in our country as well. You know, people just don't have capacity right now.

Cait Donovan:

People just don't. So, so that that's part one of answering that question. The other part of answering that question, the there's, I did another degree in bio behavioral health after I moved back to the States that really complements everything I know in Chinese medicine, but from the Western perspective and this bio behavioral health degree was basically how stress affects every system of the body, genetic, epigenetic, psychology, neurology, sociology, all the things, epidemiology, everything. So It was fascinating to do, to have, like, both sides of those things. And one of the things that I noticed is that in Chinese medicine, everything is, um, circular and connected. There's no, like, straight lines. There's not, like, A plus B equals C. And if you look at burnout information from some of the biggest voices in the burnout world, they're saying the root cause of burnout is X. And every time I read it, I'm like, girl, no. Yeah. Because there's no such thing as a singular root cause of burnout. There are a multitude of factors that pile on each other and increase your vulnerability to burnout until The straw breaks the camel's back. And in Chinese medicine, everything is always looked at holistically. So we're always looking at all the different reasons that something might come into play. Something from work, something from traits, something from family, something from culture, something from environment, something from food, something from health, something from, you know, all these little pieces that come together to create a vulnerability or a resilience to burnout either way. And some people do have a higher resilience because of all the factors that ended up in their main bucket.

Audio Only - All Participants-1:

And

Cait Donovan:

some of us just don't. So, this basic thinking, this basic idea, way of considering the body in a more holistic fashion is the biggest thing that I take with me from this Eastern perspective to say, hey, like, all of this stuff matters. And then, the next piece of that is, so it doesn't matter where you start. Because if everything affects everything affects everything, then you should be able to work on the thing that's easiest first for you. And when you work on that easiest thing, it should naturally create an opening to work on the next thing that really matters for you, which will naturally create an opening to work on the next thing. And when you've worked on those three things, four other things will have already been alleviated because everything is connected to everything, which is connected to everything. So, it takes a lot of the pressure off, like you're not going to have to fill every single bucket that's wrong. You're going to have to really focus on one, two, or three of the buckets, and the other three are going to get filled. So, it takes a lot of pressure off what actually needs filling. to happen.

Dr. Mary:

Well, I think it's also exactly like what you're saying. I get really frustrated with the wellness culture of like, now we went from this hustle culture to like do breath work a million times a day. And then, um, you know, let's, let's heal our gut. Let's do all these things. And I'm like, that's great. Great. Great, but I'm sorry if you're running around with your head cut off you are tapped out It doesn't matter what you eat your body can't even digest it the right way Like your body can't it's not as resilient to to stress It's not as resilient to these other things and I I just feel like I'm screaming this at like the Just let's break it down. Cause it's the same thing. It's like, I'll see people being like, Oh, this is, this is the cure. This is it. And I'm like, if anybody says one thing in any aspect is the answer for you run, because they don't know you. They don't know your body. They don't know your trauma. They don't know your experience in life and what you've been through. So no, and it goes. It goes that way because basically, I mean, this is what I talk to my patients about that are dealing with chronic health issues, like either chronic illness or chronic pelvic pain, a variety of these things, and I'm like, we have to learn how to re engage our body, and it's really, this hustle culture has really taken a toll on us, and I'm sorry, a vitamin D supplement's not going to help if

Cait Donovan:

you're not. And at the same time, so I tell people this all the time, like, if You're calling me for coaching, but you haven't done blood work yet, and we find out six months later that you have like no vitamin B12 and no vitamin D. I don't want to work on your mindset when your body doesn't have the fuel it needs to function. So, like, yes, and yes, always, yes, and yes, and more, and more, please. Like, it just keeps connecting.

Dr. Mary:

Yeah, totally. I was just talking to a patient about this this week. Hey, we can work on the mindset stuff. It's almost like clearing physiologically first, right? If you've got estrogen dominance, right? If you've got thyroid issues, if you've got vitamin deficiencies, right? Say all of those are like, say those are good, right? Then we can work on those things. But there is a piece where like, when my hormones have been dysregulated in the past, I don't, I can't, you feel crazy. Cause you're just like, I can't get my, why can't I get myself to do this? And you know, the tactics I'm like, we need to look at physiologically then what's, what's going on. But I was more saying like, you know, any supplement just to kind of whatever.

Cait Donovan:

No, I know. But, and I think it was perfect that you said that because it just goes into the next example and it just like, I think that's the thing about burnout in general is that Like, in Chinese medicine, it's really normal if, and it's the same for you, this is a really similar, because of the specific work that you do, it makes, this makes, will make a lot of sense for you to, if I have five patients that have migraines in Chinese medicine, all five of those patients are likely in Chinese medicine to have a different diagnosis, which means they have a completely different treatment plan, right? Like, you could have five patients with pelvic pain, right? But different pain of a different quality in a different area that requires different treatment and different, right? And this is critical to understand about burnout. The picture of burnout is so complicated that we do have to simplify it so that you have somewhere to start. But If you're looking online and somebody's like that gratitude like please gratitude is not the solution on that first day like you don't have the mental capacity or even the The neurochemicals to feel the gratitude so that it will have an effect. I love gratitude It's a fabulous practice. We know that it benefits you but if you don't have the actual flood of neurochemicals through your body when you are Like, aiming to experience gratitude intentionally, it doesn't do anything. Just thinking about it doesn't do anything. We need the neurochemicals to go with it, but when you're burnt out, you don't have those neurochemicals. Like, you don't have enough of them, so you're not going to get there.

Dr. Mary:

Yeah, I mean, I think that's important. Like the positive affirmations and, you know, that doesn't work. Like it just doesn't work. I mean, the gratitude does when you practice it and you're, you're not. In survival mode, you know, it's like Mavs loves hierarchy of needs, right? It's like, if your basic needs are not met, we can't tap into creativity. Like I find when people are extremely burned out, like they can't concentrate. They can't tap into creativity. They can't innovate. They're just like, I can't, I just can't. And I actually see this most, I'm interested to see what you see, but I see it a lot around perimenopause and menopause, like tapped out.

Cait Donovan:

Well, and I think there's there's some like hormonal overlap and people are like, well, is it burnout or is it hormones? And I'm like, or did the hormonal shift create another vulnerability to burnout? That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Dr. Mary:

Yeah, I think it's I think it's I personally think it's yes, the hormone piece is massive. But I almost feel like it like kind of adds fuel to the fire. Like the fires already there, the burnouts there, but that that, like you said, that's a piece where they're like, I am done. Like I am done. And how much of that, you know, from what ends I really think, I mean, a lot of times it's because That was the last piece, and they're like, it's perimenopause and menopause, and I'm like, yes, and, yes, and, and so that's why I like the nervous system regulation with that, but nervous system regulation, part of that is looking at your life.

Cait Donovan:

The best thing you could ever do for nervous system regulation is pee when you have to pee and drink when you're thirsty and do like, this is when we're back. to yes, you can pay somebody to learn magical somatic exercises and somatic exercises are super helpful. And there are ways of sensing your body and moving through your body mentally that are incredibly helpful, but it's much easier for you to tap into those things if you're already trying to listen frequently enough that you can catch the base signals.

Dr. Mary:

Yeah, I would say, you know, um, I see this a lot too, when people are burnt out, they're not body aware. So they're unaware of how to do an exercise. They're like, like, I can't feel this muscle working.

Cait Donovan:

And I'm like, they don't have interoception, which is why they burn out, which is why I don't believe in burnout prevention because they were never going to feel the things right. So we're, and then we're, we're, we're cycling around the same merry go round, you know?

Dr. Mary:

Well, I think, I mean, I like. I'm just saying it in different ways so that when people hear it, they're like, Oh, okay. I see. That's me. Right. And that's me. Cause I'll get people come in. They're like, Oh, I was told I can't feel my glute. My glutes aren't firing. I'm like, no. When people say glutes aren't firing, I'm like, you would literally fall down. Like you would literally. Yeah. So your glutes are firing. You just may not be able to feel them right now. So there's, there's that piece. So it's like, if you don't have capacity, if, if you can't feel your body, if you're not body aware, you're confused on what's going on it. And I've, I've been that person. I mean, that literally my. My whole thing was 2019 and like, it was, it was okay, tapped out, right? And, and with like, I always talk about Gabbermonte's work, but it's like when the body says no, and it says no, and sometimes we're not even listening, even when it's saying no, or like not sure how to even address it.

Cait Donovan:

Well, we can't hear it in the first place. We're not listening because we're not taught. Even in school, we're taught to ignore our body signals. We have to raise my hand to go use the bathroom. And then sometimes you're going to tell me, no, I'm five.

Dr. Mary:

I'm going to shit my pants. You know,

Cait Donovan:

it's five. Like, what are we doing? Oh gosh. Why are we teaching people to ignore? And are there kids that abuse the system? Sure, of course. But like, We are literally taught our entire lives. That's why people are like, well, women burn out more than men. And I'm like, maybe, or maybe the reasons for vulnerabilities are just a little bit different. And maybe women are talking about it more because I have a lot of clients that are men.

Dr. Mary:

Oh, I think men just show it different. I think they tend to show it more in anger. I think. Or like, or a withdrawal, I'd say. Yeah.

Cait Donovan:

Withdrawal, um, is a big one. And, I mean, yes, anger does come up, and I think, like, one of the three components of burnout that has to exist in order for us to say that it is burnout, even though it's not a diagnosis, it still has rules. Whatever. World Health Organization, 2019. Thanks. Um, one of the things is, You know, emotional exhaustion, which is basically an inability to regulate your emotional state, which means you're either bursting into tears, bursting into rage, bursting into so, but I hear this from both women and men all the time. One of the biggest complaints and the reason that people finally ask for help with the burnout recovery is I'm being terrible to my friends and family. I can hear myself doing it. Like I, I know I'm doing it and I still can't stop myself.

Dr. Mary:

Yeah, I've been there. Yeah. It's and yeah, I think, like you said, I think. You know, it's not just women, it's men too, and I don't, I don't like to divide, um, people. I'm just saying, oh, it's just women or it's just men. It's like, no, we, and it's, and it's hard to even classify it men versus women, right? Because everybody shows emotions or they process things like differently, but I mean culturally there are kind of Stereotypes of how people behave when they're burnt out. Right. Like kind of what I was saying, like emotional withdrawal. Like I have been around wonderful men that when they just can't process any type of feedback because they are already tapped out. And so that's when the lashing out happens. Like, Oh, now you just tapped into my, my worthiness by saying, Hey, this, you know, whatever. And so it's just really interesting, like. That it's taken us so long to be talking about this, you know, I mean, I just think it's also evolved as, as work becomes easier to do at home and, you know, people are making more and more money than ever. And as a culture, I think we value so much our currency as of money, not as much currency of health and time and relationships.

Cait Donovan:

And I think that, you know, when the World Health Organization finally decided that they were going to say burnout was a thing, it gave us permission to really fully talk about it. Like, really fully say, well, there's a definition now. I don't think it's ideal, but it's there. At least we're starting somewhere.

Dr. Mary:

Yeah. And

Cait Donovan:

now we can talk about it.

Dr. Mary:

It's, it's, you know, it's giving, once people almost, I don't know how other people felt, but I almost feel like I needed permission. Like I needed to know it was okay to sit when I'm tired. Cause like you were saying as a kid, I remember I got in trouble for eating during class. I'm like, I am like, I play three sports. I am hungry and I am growing and I got like detention for eating in class or something. I'm like, so I got scared of eating and then not holding in my pee. And, and I don't think at the time, I don't know if anybody actually like meant to be harmful with it. No. But I think that it's tuning in. Yeah, exactly. And so. What are like some key signs that somebody can kind of start paying attention to, like you said, eating when you want to eat, drinking, like, going to the bathroom. Like if somebody wanted to, you know, start now, like, what, what would be like this little step they could do?

Cait Donovan:

Well, that's the first step. So this is what we call foundational self care and is literally forcing yourself to listen to your body and then respond to it, or at least tell it. In your mind, hey, I know you've got to do that. I'm still in the car. I'm going to be home in 15 minutes. I promise when I walk in the door, I'm going to go to the bathroom. Like, just having, kind of having, starting a conversation with your body that says, hey, I hear you, I see you, my eyes are tired, I'm on a Zoom call right now, and I cannot shut my camera off because my boss is here, so we're going to have to get through this, and then I will shut my eyes for 60 seconds just to give you a break, like, here, whatever. But this, this foundational self care is. For me, step number one, because I don't think you can do the harder things without the energy boosts that you get from doing those things. So that's number one. And the next thing for me is one of my favorite things. Look into resentment. Because so many people are out there being like, Gratitude Journal saved me from burnout. I'm like, girl, you weren't burnt out if that helped. Like, that's what burnout is. Um, because we have such an imbalance of neurochemicals and we have brain shrinkage in our forehead and in our amygdala, in our limbic system, in our hippocampus, like, there's, we don't have access to everything we're supposed to have access to when we're burnt out. Your brain actually literally shrinks. You lose neurons, which means you don't have as many neurochemicals, because you don't have as many neurons to use those neurochemicals. So, we have to work with the emotions that are already there and present. Chinese medicine states there's no such thing as a negative emotion. The only emotions that are negative are the ones that are unprocessed, untransformed, ignored, etc. So as long as we use it for something, it's useful. That's it. And resentment is the emotion that I find to be the most common. And when we really dig into it and pay attention to where it's popping up, it teaches us one of two things always. One, your boundaries are messed up. Two, you've abandoned yourself, or you've engaged in self neglect. Intentionally, but maybe subconsciously. If you can learn that, And you've already regained some energy because you're using your body the way that you're supposed to and you're paying attention and creating a trusting relationship so you're increasing your internal safety which calms your nervous system, etc. And then you start moving through the parts of your life that really aren't working for you by paying attention to the resentment. You see the relationships that are off. You see where you're over giving. You see where you're over stepping and possibly meddling. Most of my clients are meddlers in some way, shape, or form, in a people pleasing shape or form, most commonly, which doesn't actually please people, it just makes people annoyed, so then they don't get the gratitude they think they deserve for being the meddlers and the people pleasers that they are, and it's like this nasty

Dr. Mary:

cycle.

Cait Donovan:

It's a nasty cycle, but resentment can break it down because you start to see the boundary and you start to see, most people that burn out, I think, do not know, in addition to being able to feel their bodies, they don't really have a clear picture of what their wants, needs, desires, and preferences are. When you look at the second part that resentment teaches you, all the places you are abandoning yourself for the perceived benefit of others. All the places that you're engaging in self neglect. You will start to be able to make a list of the things that you need.

Audio Only - All Participants-1:

Mm hmm.

Dr. Mary:

So No, I love that, because I think, you know I'm a recovering people pleaser and I swear, I mean, I feel like people that listen to this podcast are like, we, we get it, Mary, they talk about your cancer, like, but it's true. It's like, that's what got me sick. I was so worried about what everybody else thought. And I didn't know, you know, I read books on how to stop people pleasing. And I was like, I get it. I want to stop like consciously I want to stop. But I am burning out because I'm trying to please everybody and it's literally an impossible task. If you've ever been online, you will see not one person is unanimously liked in this world. Like it's not, it is actually impossible. And I think like, For me, so much of like releasing resentment was like looking at things not as black and white, like, okay, well, maybe my childhood wasn't so great. Okay, but what was okay? And like, what was the intent behind it? And it's almost like, at least for me, when I really started looking at it, and less like anger, and more be like, man, that's the place that that person was in when they treated me like that. Then I started feeling it. Sadness for them and then it kind of started shifting and then for me, it was realizing the more I paid attention to myself and my body and my cues, then I could be like. Oh, if somebody doesn't, if I can start, I love what you're saying, because it's like, if I can start recognizing how my body reacts around certain people, I naturally put up boundaries because I'm like, is it worth me taking on this project for this amount of money? Right? If I'm going to be exhausted, so my currency of my health and time and my capacity for relationships is going to be limited. And so that's the way I look at stuff. And so the people pleasing is still hard to work through. But at the same time, it's the tapping into yourself and learning and then it kind of slowly starts kind of shifting because you start naturally kind of doing it.

Cait Donovan:

Well, and I think it's important that we talk about the fact that we people please because we think that it keeps us safe. So it's still an aim. Everything that we're doing. that burnt us out were things that we were doing to try and keep ourselves safe. And now we have to learn different safety measures. And we have to learn that we can be safe even when we don't engage in our previous safety measures. So one of the things that I tell people all the time, at usually a further point and not in the beginning of burnout recovery, a little bit further down is, I want you to do something that you assume is going to disappoint somebody at least once a day. Something really small, like somebody's going into the kitchen and they start walking back and then you say, Hey, can you grab me a cup of water? So they might be annoyed or disappointed or whatever, you know, like, but they'll probably do it. And, and probably they won't feel anything. Like, once in a while you'll have some reaction, but most of the time people are like, Yeah, no problem, and they just go do it. So, working toward disappointing people on a regular basis so that you can start to understand that you can take up a little more space and people will still love you. You are not going to be ostracized for needing more than nothing.

Dr. Mary:

You, I mean, it depends on the people you're around though, right? Like if you're But that's

Cait Donovan:

a good lesson too, but we're not looking for these big, massive disappointments in these crazy conversations. We're looking for like one of the things that I did actually not that long ago, my husband and I were getting ready for a hike. The dog was ready. The, you know, her harness was on, we were dressed, boots on. And then I realized all of a sudden that I had to go to the bathroom. Five years ago, six years ago, well, eight years ago now, Jesus, the time passes. Great, so eight years ago, I would have not gone to the bathroom because I wouldn't have wanted to ask him to wait for me. Because I would have thought, I would have assumed that he was going to be annoyed that he had to wait for me to go to the bathroom. And then I would have gone on the hike, which was a half an hour from the house, a two hour hike, and a half an hour back. And I would have been dying, so I would have been really irritated when I was out there. And then we probably would have gotten into a fight because I was in a shitty mood, because, you know, like, da da da da da. Because it didn't take sixty seconds to go to the GD bathroom. So, I was sitting there and I found myself almost ready to get in the car, and then I was like, you know what, I'm just going to run to the bathroom before we go. He goes, alright. And goes out to the car. And I was like, I've been with this person for 20 years. He's never been mad at me for going to the bathroom. I still think he's going to be mad at me for going to the bathroom. So I practiced disappointing him in that little tiny way. And if you disappoint people in little tiny ways and then they're constantly blowing up at you, well You got really clear signs. Then you're just, to me, when you start disappointing people, your job is to gather data that says I can be safe here or I can't be safe here. Most of the time I can be safe here. Sometimes you find out I can't be safe here. I just can't no matter what I do. So I gotta go. Yeah,

Dr. Mary:

yeah. I mean, it, people pleasing, I feel like, it's also hard too when you're around another people pleaser because I'm like, where do they stand? Are you sure? You know, and so it's funny cause I find myself like. Enjoying being around people that are really direct. Yeah. Cause I'm like, It's easier. Where, where are we at? Like, where are we at? Like, I don't, I can't, like the bouncing around just, I don't want to guess. I don't want to guess. I want you to tell me and like, sure, it might disappoint me, but I want that same flexibility to write. It's like, if I have a friend and I'm like, Hey, I am not feeling well, or maybe they're not feeling well, right? I'm not going to get upset at them for maybe canceling with me because they're not feeling well, because I know that there's likely going to be a time when I need to honor my body and rest. And Rest and if they're upset that then I can't rest like then I'm like, oh, okay. So now I've disappointed somebody right? And so this like rigidity of like, hey also You know going both ways, but then if you know if somebody's constantly canceling on you and just disappointed

Cait Donovan:

exactly like you said data Gather data, gather the evidence. I just had, um, I'm doing, I'm giving a talk and it's in, in my hometown, which is like super exciting for me and it's for, it's for the chamber of commerce and, you know, but it's, and it's a friend of mine that runs it and so it's, it's really fun and my aunt called my mom and was like, we were thinking about going. Is that weird? And my mom was like, you know, Katie, like she's changed over the past eight years since this burnout. Like if she doesn't want you to be there, she'll tell you. So don't ask me. Ask her. So my aunt wrote to me yesterday and was like, me and your, I have, you know, a lot of aunts. She was like, me and your other aunt, thinking that we wanted to go, would that be comfortable for you? And I was like, hell yeah, absolutely. But, she asked me, and she said in her message, I know that you'll tell me if it's not okay. Oh. Right? So, she was already giving me permission to be truthful, and she knows that I'll be truthful, so she doesn't mind asking. It just, not people pleasing, pleases people better.

Dr. Mary:

It really, I mean, it really does. And it's, it's really hard for me when I have to give any negative feedback or anything that could potentially disappoint somebody. But at the same time, it's like, there's something like, as you start paying more attention to your body, like anxiety builds up, I feel like an energetic dysregulation and it's like. I'll just all of a sudden get anxiety and I'm like, why do I have anxiety? What's going on? And then I have to look at these different things in my life and be like, Oh, because I used to think anxiety was just me. I thought it was a thing. It's more of, it's a symptom. It's a sign of a variety of different things, physiological, emotional, whatever, right? You

Audio Only - All Participants-1:

might

Dr. Mary:

be hungry and then you're like, Oh, I'm fine. But yeah, so in summary, I mean, a lot of what we talked about is, you know, when feeling burnout or feeling tapped out, the first kind of steps like you were saying to kind of look into are like just listening to your body, like when you need rest, when you're hungry, when you need a break or whatever it is. It's trying to honor that and listening to that and then looking into resentment. Like where in your life maybe do you have resentment? And maybe it's your people pleasing, right? You're doing all this stuff for other people, but they didn't ask for it. They didn't ask for it. And if somebody comes up to me and they're like, Oh, I did all these things, you know, whatever. It's like, well, I didn't ask. I didn't ask. And so I didn't know to show appreciation. And so it's like this chronic kind of disappointment cycle. And so it, I think that's spot on is like, where in your life, if you're dealing with. You're just feeling tapped out. You feel like you're just not connected. You don't have capacity for anything. Look at, yeah, your resentment, where are you holding on to things? Because it's so easy to just focus on that. And then energetically you attract this negativity as well. And then with that, then your immune systems get shot and then that you can't fight these things. So like you're saying, it's just this whole cascade of stuff.

Cait Donovan:

So think about how heavy resentment is as an emotion. When you work through it and make different choices, you gain energy like that.

Dr. Mary:

You feel lighter.

Cait Donovan:

Yeah, immediately.

Dr. Mary:

It's crazy. So how can people reach you if you want to explain what your services are and a little bit about yourself so people can know how to reach out?

Cait Donovan:

Yeah. So, uh, we do group coaching through my business, one on one coaching with me or with my director of coaching, Sarah Vosen, who's incredible. And the best way to find us, um, is, well, also keynotes, blah, blah, blah. You can find out all the things online. I don't need to tell you all the things, but the best place to find us is Fried the Burnout Podcast. That's the core of everything we do, the center of our worlds, and we'll have the links to anything you could possibly imagine.

Dr. Mary:

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on. This was awesome. Thank you for having me.

You've been listening to TMI Talk with your host, Dr. Mary Grinberg. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about Dr. Mary, head on over to drmarygrinberg. com. And make sure to follow Dr. Mary at DrMaryPT on all social channels. To learn more about Dr. Mary's integrative practice for pain relief in Austin, Texas, head on over to resilient rx. com. Thanks for listening!