Episode 33: Michelle Payan: Could a Chronic Illness Be the Start of an Awakening?

Join us for an enlightening episode of TMI Talk as Dr. Mary Grimberg delves into the profound topic of spirituality with visionary healthcare leader Michelle Payan.

(Previously episode 4 of season 2) 

 This episode explores the intricate balance between evidence-based medicine, personal intuition, and holistic healing practices.

Michelle Payan, CEO of Kairos Therapeutic Retreat and an oncology clinical pharmacist, shares her journey inspired by her grandmother's traditional medicine practices. Together, Dr. Mary and Michelle offer a compelling critique of Western medicine, highlighting its limitations in treating chronic conditions and emphasizing the vital role of practitioner intuition and patient advocacy.

Discover the nuances between anxiety and intuition, and hear personal anecdotes about how intuitive insights can lead to critical health interventions. The episode sheds light on "medical gaslighting," encouraging listeners to trust their inner guidance amid potential dismissals by healthcare professionals.

Embrace the journey of personal growth through challenges, with candid discussions on managing emotions, facing triggers, and overcoming "dark energy." Michelle Payan presents her vision for a framework to support healing journeys, while Dr. Mary underscores the significance of community support and living authentically.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to integrate mind, body, and spirit for comprehensive healing, navigate the complexities of chronic illness, and cultivate a supportive, nourishing environment. Tune in to gain insights on balancing professional expertise and personal spirituality in your healing journey.

TIME STAMPS

00:00 Bridging Science and Spiritual Healing

04:29 Holistic Healing Integration

06:58 Chronic Illness and Letting Go

12:23 Understanding Intuition vs. Anxiety

14:33 Meditation Clears Mind's Ripples

18:36 Exploring Nontraditional Healthcare Approaches

21:08 Healing Through Mind-Body Techniques

25:32 Identifying Energy Drains

27:46 Overcoming Trauma and Starting Anew

31:20 Holistic Healing and Self-Integration

35:14 Understanding Inner Intuition and Healing

38:43 Healthy Expression of Emotions

40:44 "Embracing Emotions, Resisting Darkness"

44:40 Holistic Healing and Intuition Journey

46:34 TMI Talk with Dr. Mary

You can learn more about Michelle's work below:

https://www.kairoshealth.org/

If you have any other questions or topics you want to talk about, send me a message on Instagram. And if you loved this episode, please leave me a rating and a comment with your feedback. Please share this with your friends and loved ones, too!

I’ll see you in a week!

Transcript

0:07

Ready to tackle the topics that you've been curious about but never felt comfortable asking? With a straightforward, no nonsense perspective on life, blended with candid stories and a healthy dose of humor, Doctor. Mary Grimberg cuts through the fluff and addresses the conversations we all need to have on TMI Talk, where no subject is too taboo, our bodies, our minds, and everything in between. Now here's your host, doctor Mary. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to TMI talk with doctor Mary. Today, we're gonna be talking about how chronic illness and cancer can lead to a spiritual awakening. And I wanna preface this by saying that we still wanna honor the physical symptoms and keep this also rooted rooted in science as well. I believe there's a massive gap in health care and understanding our bodies in respect to a higher being. Right? And it's regardless of religion. It's more of your beliefs of something greater and how this can incorporate into your healing process. Today, I'm really excited to introduce Michelle Payon. She is a visionary health care leader, an oncology clinical pharmacist, a CEO of Kairos Therapeutic Retreat, which is a minority and woman led nonprofit dedicated to redefining cancer survivorship care. With over twenty years of clinical experience, Michelle has played pivotal roles in building oncology programs and opening 3 teaching hospitals along with their outpatient oncology infusion centers. Inspired by her grandmother, a traditional medicine woman, Michelle integrates her deep rooted appreciation for holistic healing into her work, making relationship centered care the heart of Kairos. At Kairos, Michelle's mission is clear, to move beyond just treating the disease into foster environments where cancer survivors can truly heal and flourish. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. I am so excited because Michelle and I met about a year ago. Actually, I went to 1 of your retreats, and it was incredible because it was this bridge between being done with cancer treatment and then real life. And so there's a massive gap there as well in how to support people recovering from cancer and what that looks like. And so it was almost like we were on the same like, I I hadn't had my big spiritual awakening at that point, but I you were bridging the gap between science and something like a higher being. And I was just so intrigued by it because you kept the language as, like, everyday language. Like, it wasn't like, oh, you know, this you know, sometimes it can kinda be very, like, flighty and just not grounded and just kind of like, oh, just trust. I I I don't even know really what I'm trying to say, but Like, abstract language comes to mind. Yes. Yes. And it just never resonated with me. And when I met you, it was just like, holy shit. Like, she can speak the language of science, but then also talk about energetics and spirituality and just wrapping all that together. And I just thought it was just awesome that we had met, and you've been a spiritual mentor for me. You know? And so again, my my pleasure. My pleasure. I love that you mentioned that Cairo served as a bridge for you. Mhmm. That was, something that came into my awareness that I was there to ground what I was doing with participants in science. That's 1 of the reasons why Kairos ended up being research based, evidence based. We continue to gather data to show the changes that we were seeing in the participants as we, pre intervention and post intervention. Mhmm. So all of that was really important to me. However, we as people are essentially a bridge between the seen manifested physical and the unseen energetic physics based quantum reality that we cannot see. And we have a long way to go to truly understand that connection. But introducing it into the healing space was really, a something that I knew we needed to be doing. Traditional standard of care treatment is vastly important. However, it omits and is not capable of expanding, their efforts into this space, and financial incentives keep standard medical care from from doing so. And so a really integrated view, a holistic view of healing and care and the recovery process is what we really wanted to investigate with participants and to continue to support and expand. There is room for all of it. You know, it's it's funny. A few months ago I feel like it's incomplete without the full Well, it's the mind, the body, and the spirit. Right? Like, I had I had a religious beliefs growing up because it was kind of just, like, pushed on me, but it almost felt like, you know, a greater being was kind of pushing me more and more to kind of wake up. Right? Just like, okay. That that shit didn't work for you. Okay. We're gonna throw you something else. Oh, okay. That's not gonna work. Okay. I'm gonna throw you something else. Throw you something else. And if you're asking yourself, why me? Why does this keep happening to me? I'm not blaming anybody. I just wanna plant a seed of, hey. If you're not getting answers from the material world and you are getting say, you know, with cancer is 1 thing. Right? Like, you have you've been diagnosed with cancer. Right? I mean, you have a diagnosis. Often, there are people that go years without an official diagnosis. So that would be, like, the chronic illness. And sometimes even with chronic illness, there's never a an answer. You know? I mean, I had chronic fatigue for twenty years prior to cancer, and I truly believe that my lack of kind of surrendering almost to something greater and this constant fight or flight of trying to control, because we ultimately don't have control. Mhmm. Right? And if we try to control it, think about how that just shows up in our nervous system. You know? Like, constantly feeling like we have to take care of ourselves and there's nobody else looking out for us. Mhmm. Right? I mean, if you just notice how that feels in your nervous system to be held by something greater, you know, and we'll we'll dive in more on, you know, you had sent me, you know, like, a Gabor Mate's work on, you know, trauma and unprocessed trauma and how that affects the body's response to healing as well and disease. And Well, that's an important point that Gabor Mate makes, that trauma isn't necessarily what happens to us. It's our response within our bodies. Mhmm. And knowing how to work with our bodies, mind, body, spirit Mhmm. As a triad altogether is what can really put things into perspective. It's not saying that the trauma isn't severe. It's giving you the ability to have resilience in coping with those those happenings in your life. Yeah. It's like bounce it's not like I don't wanna say bouncing back. It's like, hey. Shit's still gonna happen in life. Like, you know, you and I were talking to here. I'm going through some personal stuff that popped up, and damn. Okay. You just find more and more in your life where you're like, oh, okay. That's another thing for me to work on. There's no end healing. Right? It's this There is no end healing. Quickly can we recoup back. Right? I have navigated through complex PTSD on top of, you know, my illnesses and stuff, which I truly believe deeply rooted caused these illnesses because I had this this inability to cope with stress. Right? Anything could just set me off, and I'd be off for, like, the entire day. And so how much of that affecting our bodies is it's it's a huge part that's it's just chronically missed. And it's hard it was you know, this this subject has been scary for me because I had had such a negative view on spirituality for a long time because I grew up basically in a very controlling religious environment. And I I said, fuck it. Like, I'm out. Like, if that if that's God, if that's the higher being, and that's how I'm behaving, like, I'd rather not I'd rather not I'd rather figure out life alone without all of that. And just 1 thing after another, even after cancer and then divorce and just, like, more and more stuff just kept piling and piling and piling and finally, okay. Okay. Okay. I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. I'm fucking in. Okay? And the beauty of what our life journeys are about, it's about remembering that the truth is within. Mhmm. The ability to heal is within. Of course, we're not dismissing any sort of medical interventions, but the the true intuition our our intuition and our authenticity and the expression of that authenticity is really what has always been. And a lot of the healing journey is to peel back the layers to discover that again, to remember it. Yeah. Well, evidence based medicine is 3 things. It's the patient, the practitioner's experience, and medicine or, in research. So you, your intuition is massive. And who benefits from us not being able to tap into our intuition? Everything external to us. Anything that we're gonna buy, anything that it's there's a benefit of seeking external to us for answers. Right? There's a piece of me, like, yeah. I still needed a physician to diagnose me, and and I went through chemo. Right? And I still respected the health care system in a sense of, like, hey. Western medicine keeps you alive. Mhmm. Let's just that's what it does. It doesn't help with chronic illness. Right. It doesn't help with Genius is in the acute setting. Yeah. It's it's incredible in the acute setting, and that's it in my experience. Mhmm. It doesn't have space for these, you know, elusive things that people just don't have time to talk through. Right? Like, if you go to your doctor, you get ten minutes with them in and out. If you can't benefit from a medication, then okay. Well There are limited options. Yeah. Limited options. And so your intuition is so incredibly powerful, but we are not taught how to hone into that. Mhmm. And so, you know, we have I sent you some questions before, but I I look to you for guide like, you have been like I said, you've been so instrumental in me just kind of whenever I think of something, I'm like, what would Michelle do? Right? I just I respect you so much. And 1 of the things is, like okay. Well, if somebody's listening, they're like, what the fuck does my intuition mean? Right? So how can somebody if you're okay answering this, like, how can they start to understand what their intuition is? Because Mhmm. I got confused with what anxiety was versus intuition. Okay. Because when you're dealing with chronic illness, you're constantly kinda anxious because you're not getting the answers. And then you're you think you're kinda crazy, so you start doubting your thoughts. So then your intuition be kinda comes like you can't really understand it. Mhmm. So discern between the 2. So how how could somebody listening start to tap into that? The I'm gonna premise the what I'm gonna say next with anxiety being based in fear. We have to understand where fear works and lives in our body, and intuition is benevolent. It's protective. It's kind. It's gentle. It's compassionate. And I think that's a big distinction between those 2 voices that that come from within. But to begin to cultivate the ability to discern and the ability to connect with that benevolent still voice within, 1 of the main modalities is mindfulness based practices, meditation, prayer, visualization even. Well, meditation primarily because visualization is more active. You're you're going somewhere in a still space, but the meditation truly allows the clouds of the different potential thoughts and natural natural occurrences of our human, psyche to to clear and settle. Also comparative to, like, the ripples on the surface of a water. Mhmm. You know, when there are lots of ripples, we can't discern really anything. But when there is a calm spaciousness, your ability to connect with that deeper intuition improves. And it's it's not, and it and it's something that requires practice. It is work. Yeah. What you're saying essentially is drown out the noise. Right? Like, with drown out the noise, sit with yourself Mhmm. And listen. And kindness, compassion, and love, and not rooted in fear. Not rooted in fear and rooted in your truth. Yeah. We have to be able to tell ourselves the truth and recognize things. And and it's so difficult with the cultural influences that we have, that haven't made space for this type of way of being. That's where the eastern cultures are drastically different from our western way of being. Mhmm. And yet this is critical for us to be open to the guidance that that is within. Yeah. It's something that is never taught. You know, I've I was told over the years that I was intuitive as a physical therapist, and I didn't know what that meant. I thought people were just kinda bullshitting me, and I'm just like, oh, you're so you know? And I'm like, no. But I realized, oh, wow. Like, I can kinda feel, you know, like, I you could just kind of start wrong. Yeah. You can kinda start, like, feeling what's wrong. And my intuition is essentially what saved my life is because I was going to, a doctor over and over, and they were like, you're fine. There's nothing wrong. I'm like, I have a massive tumor above my collarbone. When I Google it, it says Hodgkin's lymphoma. You know? And I was like, no. You're good. My intuition woke me up 1 day and said, no. Go. Go. Go. Find somebody else. And I didn't know what this feeling was. I just I got me out of bed, and it was just like, I gotta go. I gotta listen. And I want to point out that that could have been a a very fearful thing, yet it was it was protective and benevolent and compassionate. Yeah. It was it was a little voice Mhmm. The whole time. It was just, hey. Go. Get and I was scared because I was like, oh, I don't wanna upset this doctor. Like, you know, I don't want anybody to be mad at me. I just and I go, no. Hell no. This doctor could move tomorrow and forget about me. It it's not about that. It's about, okay. I need to to listen to that. And it's it's it's interesting because when I work with patients in chronic with chronic pain, illness, and and, whatnot, they know intuitive like, they'll say, like, oh, intuitively, you see them kind of rubbing their jaw or, like, doing certain things to kinda calm their nervous system. And I'll just point out, like, listen to that. Mhmm. Like, give yourself permission to know to listen to it because medical gaslighting is wild right now. I mean, it is. And and doctors aren't really trained in that way. And if it's outside of their training or even the ability to read papers and research, then it is an unknown. So that's really important to tune into those symptoms, those physical symptoms, and not dismiss them in any way. Know that they are based in in reality. And our job is to continue to go down the path to find a diagnosis, to find an answer, to find a different provider, or, someone who can lead you down the spiritual path. Yeah. That there are other collaborative methods to work with physical symptoms, like visualization. Visual visualization has been researched and shown to reduce pain. Yes. I think that what is cool about intuition is you can sit, drown out the noise, sit with yourself, and maybe you don't know what you're listening to or what you're looking for, but just being, kind of being still. So So when there's so much noise in the background, it's easy to look external, external, external for answers. And we are as humans, we are flawed. And so every time we go external, like, there's this flow of, okay, you might find great success, but you might also be extremely disappointed. And there's a lot of confusion too. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think the key is, and I'd be interested what you say, is, like, sit with your intuition. Sit and go, where do I think I need to go get help? Right? Because that was something that I had to do. In my experience, I had been dealing with chronic illness for chronic fatigue for so long, and I sat with it and sat with it and sat with it. And I was like, oh my god. And I'm not saying this for anybody else, but for me, I think it was the side effect from my antidepressants. Twenty years. Mhmm. And once I started working with somebody to help me get off and, like, I used a lot of the mind, body, spirit kinda techniques to kind of help my nervous system as I'm doing it. I'm still not completely off. Like breath work. My fatigue is, like, almost it just so much better. But it was like, I didn't sit with myself. I wouldn't have known I would have kept going and going and going. And not saying, like, I'm in a place where I could do that, but there was a place where I couldn't get off because I needed to kind of manage my nervous system because I didn't have any other skill set to help do that. Not saying you don't have a skill set. I'm just saying that there is the ability to heal from these things by understanding your traumas and understanding your intuition. And what I for me, what I realized is that my anxiety was actually from not listening, not being still, looking external. A misalignment. Yeah. Mhmm. And so if if someone's hearing this for the first time and they hear there's there may be a link between a spiritual awakening or chronic illness or maybe even cancer. What would you tell them? And, again, we've said it, but just being sensitive that your physical symptoms are still real. They are there. What I'm challenging is the narrative of, can we look at this another way to help support the body. And so what would you say to that? I think that you're right on target about discovering ways and using developing practices and skills to be able to work through certain limitations of the body, certain types of physical symptoms, and don't the physical symptom is a messenger. Yes. Yes. It's a signal. Yes. It's a message. It is a messenger that that you need to find the answer to. Like, the still small voice was also a messenger. And often, we don't know at all. It's always in retrospect that these things make sense. Oh, yeah. I was not clear when I was going through my stuff. Mhmm. Like, it was confusing. It was And be open to that guidance and and get to the bottom of it in terms of a medical diagnosis or another type of root cause, anxiety being, a symptom, a messenger of something else. And I also wanted to touch on after you were treated for cancer and finished your treatment, you were done with that physical symptom, if you will, in a sense. Where what did you feel like heal what was healing like after that piece, that phase of of your treatment was over? Well, first, there's a lot of anger. Why body? Why did you do this to me? Why did my body fail me? So there was a lot of anger Mhmm. Around that. Like, can I get emotional? It's like like, how could this fucking happen? Mhmm. I thought I did everything I was supposed to do. I ate healthy. I exercised. I did everything the world told me to do to manage my health. Mhmm. And I was like, what the fuck? Right? So there's, like, this anger piece that comes with it and people that are listening, you know, may be able to relate. Why me? Right? And then you sit in that for enough and you're just like, okay. I'm fucking tired of being angry. Right? I'm tired of being angry. What else is there? Because I was told there's nothing we can do. Like, you just hope it doesn't come back. And then I started looking into energetics and and understanding, like, oh, okay. Where am I showing up that is just draining me? Right? So part of my journey was just starting to recognize what was filling up my cup and what was draining me. And I also knew that my people pleasing was crushing me. Mhmm. And I didn't know how to stop it. I just knew it needed to stop. Mhmm. And so I dedicated as I moved through the anger, then I started kind of going, why did this happen for me? Yes. Right? Which it took a long fucking time to get there, though. Yeah. And it's, this awakening from a a deeply difficult physical, diagnosis is a deeply personal experience for each and every person. Mhmm. And what I wanted to point to was that opening up beyond or understanding that how is this for me, and how can I grow in spite of the diagnosis is a way that we can move beyond the physical, and it is another dimension? It's another layer to the healing process. Well, it's also like when the physical world can't explain things. Right? I was like, I'm not just gonna give up. I'm a fighter. You know? Like, I've been through some shit. And and what I realized now is that it was a gift to wake me up. I was in a marriage that was just we were on wit's end already when I was diagnosed. Like, very different people, very toxic. And, you know, between that, I was just so obsessed with work. I put my whole identity into what I was, not not Mary, like, who my authentic self. I was wearing a mask every day, like, scared because I was living and based in this rooted trauma with having a lot of childhood trauma on top of it. Right? I just kind of manifested that in, like, a marriage and, like, you know, because you're going through these, like, goggles or these glasses of of wound being wounded. Mhmm. And so when you're wounded, you make decisions based on those glasses. And so I decide I need to get new glasses. I needed to I got divorced, and I I made I went out, you know, got an apartment, started picking up the the mess of my life that had become even though it looks like I was doing all these great things and just thought you were supposed to be. Yeah. And it was just this hustle culture, and and I didn't I just kept going against my body's intuition with things and making business decisions out of fear. And it was just crippling and and what the whole port part of my journey was showing up authentically as myself. And so much of this podcast and and why I rebranded it was to be like, oh my god. We're missing so much about health. If we can laugh, if we can show up with our friends and, like, 0 battery friends, you know what I mean by that? It's like, we don't need to dress up. We can just sit around and just sit on the couch and just Yeah. Whatever. I don't have to show up as anything. And what if my whole world was that? Yeah. And what if I could cultivate a clinic where people respected me and they respected my time, they respected my energy, and they wanted to be there? Not just taking people just because they wanna come and maybe ask for discounts or whatever. Right? They honor my time and my energy. What if I cultivated that? A completely nourishing environment. And the beautiful thing is that we all have that capacity and ability. We just don't believe it. Right? Because we haven't seen it. And if you're listening to this and you're you're just in the shit storm, just know, keep going, keep listening, try to stay grounded when you can and understand there's more. It's just you may not understand it right now. And, again, not dismissing the physical symptoms, like, because that shit's real. Right? I was telling you, I go, there's so much disconnect with actually, this kinda goes into the next question is, like, there's so much disconnect with, like, this the mind, body, spirit. Right? They're all kind of separately treated, like, the mind separately treated by maybe psychologists, then the body is treated maybe by, like, physical therapist and then specialists and stuff. Right? And then the spirit, it's like, okay. Then the spiritual world. And so what I've been finding is nobody talks. There's not, like, a talking. It's just like, oh So people will be like, oh, well, like, okay. Go get energy worked on with your neck pain. And, hey, I am all about I am all about doing that. Right? But, like, my neck fucking hurts. So I need someone to work on my physical body because we are working on. And then I can tap back in and be like, why did my neck flare up? What what message is this sending me? Right? But I know, and I need that worked on. Right? That's why we have these gifts of wonderful people that can do these things, like physical therapist, massage therapist, all that stuff. And so, like, what are in your opinion, what are some ways we can incorporate spirituality while still respecting the physical symptoms and kind of being on our healing journey? Yeah. So for 1, the medical community, Western medicine is so reductionistic. You pointed out that everything is separated into its parts. And one's own, responsibility is to bring all those parts together, to truly be the manager and the orchestrator, the compassionate adult that can coordinate all of it. Unfortunately, when you're going through a difficult, diagnosis, having someone to do that for you is is definitely ideal. But it would be much more compatible with healing if these individual specialties spoke to 1 another. And to incorporate that spiritual aspect is to know that you're supported in general by a benevolent universe for 1, and tapping into what are these physical symptoms saying to us. How can I address this malalignment in my life from a place of groundedness and centeredness that's compassionate, that's, calm? So we have to create this spaciousness within our our orchestrator to be able to take a step back and see things more, on a neutral level and for for what they are. And I know that's, it's difficult going through these difficult challenges, but that we can respect each occurrence, each, encounter, each opportunity in our lives as being just right for what we need. Yeah. I think, like, that's spot on. You know? And it's like, what are these things potentially telling us? And and that's when you can kinda go through too. The other thing I found helpful is, like, if you think about what is some area of your body that you're chronically kind of dealing with issues with. And for me, it was always neck. And the if you look at the emotional suppression, right, so you can kind of know, like, your body is trying to say something and it's showing up in that kind of area. Right? So, like, throat and neck can be a message of, like, where you you're stunting your authenticity or speaking your truth. And so kind of using those guidelines and, like, where am I? We know, like, trauma's stored in the hips and pelvis too. So it's like if we're having a flare up, it's like, where are we? What trauma is being triggered right now? What do we need to work through or address or kind of center ourselves back and understanding, like, hey. My body is talking to me, and it's talking to you through your intuition. If we're not tapping into our intuition, your body's like, hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. And it becomes more and more And it's to hear. Until you hear it. Yeah. The physical is is, things getting more pronounced up to the point where it becomes a physical symptom. It it means that it's on the more severe spectrum. Yeah. Because it's like because we're not taught how to go inward. When people said go inward, I was like, what does that mean? What does that mean? And, you know, you explained it earlier, and it's tapping into that intuition and being like, what is fear? What is not? What is I think knowing that the healing journey that it's being kind, it's kind, it's full of love is a nice thing because there's also this whole other aspect of, like, the healing guru culture, which I can't even handle right now. Mm-mm. Because it's so rooted in shame on top of it. And I, another believer in chronic shame is a deep rooted issue in our health. Right? Absolutely. And most people I mean, every person that I have come encounter with that is dealing with something chronic, is dealing with a deep rooted shame. Yes. And the emotions that come with it. Yeah. So that's another practice through journaling. You could delve into both your emotional experiences and your physical symptoms. The emotional experiences are also messengers. Those are the the fast ones that come through our nervous system. They kinda hijack you? Yes. Yeah. And they also need a process, and they need, a full, arc of expression. And when we don't allow the symptom or the emotion, sorry, the emotion to fully speak to us and give us those warnings or messages messages that those also become more consolidated areas that could be physical symptoms later on. We do need to allow the allowing of the emotion. The receiving of its message is so important and back to the intuition and not dismissing what it's here to tell us. I think that's perfect because I have this thing right now. Like, I almost think it's perfect because I'm working through a, like, a major trigger that just popped up and being treated not great by and being kind of pinched and hold into this position I'm in that's beyond me. I didn't have control over it. Mhmm. And my old self would have just flipped out, just gone into, like, a chronic spiral and blamed myself for this. Like, it's my fault. Right? The shame. The shame. My today where I'm at is, like, I'm trying so hard not to shame myself because I made decisions based in fear, and now they're showing up. Mhmm. Now they're showing up. And I have to deal with them now. And the way I'm looking at it is, like, what gift is on the other side of this? Because every shitty situation that I've been in, there's something on the other side like, that makes sense. Right? That makes sense. And there are so many things that I can kinda say about that. But in this situation, I'm like, I don't see, but I am trusting that something greater that's in my greatest good, I just don't know yet. Mhmm. And I have to trust that that is is on its way. At the same time, I'm still human. So I have anger, and I have being upset, and I have these feelings that I need to express. And so allowing yourself to be sad, allowing yourself to cry, you know, with Gabor Mate when I went to that retreat with Gabor Mate and Peter Levine, we talked about, like, healthy expression of anger and just, like, you know, kind of slamming the arms down or just kind of getting things out of your body when to physically express it. And so that's also helpful to kind of move things out of your body, but then it's like, okay. Well, what did that message say? So there's that kind of root of that. It's like, okay. Okay. I can keep moving this out of my body, but Which is very important as well. Super important. Yes. But then if I don't understand why they popped up in the first place do you see what I'm saying? Mhmm. Yeah. Because you can stay, then you can cry all day every day, and then you're like, okay. I gotta do something with my life. Right? So there's a balance. Mhmm. And so what what Not to dwell. Yes. To allow Yeah. Without dwelling. Not like marinating in it. I tend to wanna marinate and be like, little more. Like, why is this happening to me? And then it's like It's so normal. How quickly to come back to center. Mhmm. How quickly to come back to center. And I've just seen a lot of, like, the spiritual goobers and stuff almost pretending like that coming back to send they're just always aligned. Mhmm. And that's bullshit. Nobody's always aligned. I don't care who you are. You're human. If you are human, you are not always aligned because we are innately flawed. So and these, these challenges are meant for for us to see ourselves, to be a reflection of what is within that needs to be addressed or even compassionately looked at. Yeah. I think, like, all of it, I think that it's allowing kind of what we've been saying is, like, allowing the expression of your emotions. Right? Mhmm. Not dwelling on it, then sitting with it. And then sitting in that quiet be like, what what could what message could be trying to come through that I'm not hearing? What could my body be telling me? What is my intuition telling me? I mean, it's it's there. And and the thing is is, you know, people will say, like, why did I not learn this or, you know, yada yada? But it's like, this is like dark energy at play, dark, you know, like, things that are trying to stop good in the world. Right? The being the light in the world. And I I truly try to live every day being a light in the world, but I swear to god, I swear every day, it tries to take it with darkness or people trying to stop you and and things like that. And so what would you say to somebody who maybe they're trying to do this, but they just keep getting knocked down and then trying to get back up and then knocked down? Like, there's a phase of this where it's like I feel like for me, it feels like I'm getting closer and closer to, like, my zone of genius. Have you heard of that? Mhmm. So it's like where things that I absolutely love, like, creativity wise, like, I'm and that I'm good at and that I'm passionate about Mhmm. Versus, like, your zone of excellence, which is basically, like, is is this from this is from Gay Hendricks' book, The Leap. I think that's what it's called. And then your zone of excellence is is what you're good at, but maybe you're not passionate about. And so I feel like the more I get centered into my power into, like, lining with, like, hey. I don't just take jobs just to make money. Like, I do things that feel aligned with who I am in my value system. And so yeah. So what would you say? I feel that these challenges are cultivating your power and cultivating the resources that you will need along the way and when you are able to fully fully express. And also find allies. You find 1. You find money. Mhmm. Find find the others. They're there. Mhmm. That's, that's like minded community. Mhmm. The people that are the well, how did you say? The nourishers. Mhmm. The 0%. The 0 battery friends. 0 battery friends. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes so much sense, all of it. All of it. And so is there anything else that you wanted to kind of add before we kind of summarize what we had chatted about? I really just want to cultivate a a framework to help people through their healing journeys, whether it is cancer, other chronic illnesses that we are on this path of of true, full, authentic expression, and that there is a path. There's a path to discovering yourself and the to keep going in in developing that resilience because once you're tapped in fully, then your truth will guide you I love that. Regardless of the external circumstances. I love that. Yeah. So in summary, what we talked about today was blending the mind, body, spirit, understanding your intuition, how to tap into it by clearing the external noise and sitting with yourself, allowing that to guide you to seek medical help and still honoring your physical symptoms as well and and getting that care. And then on top of it, allowing full expression of your emotions, but not dwelling in it. And at the same time, finding a community that is like minded that, you know, feels and acts and has the same beliefs. I will say there's a purging phase as you start going through this where you may feel like you're, you know, leaving friends behind or situations, and there's, like, some grieving that comes with this. It's not an easy journey. It is the most difficult thing I've ever done in my entire life, but it is so worth it. And I'm so grateful for meeting people like yourself and going to Kairos and then just meeting other people along this journey as well. And just know that there's so much more that maybe if you don't see it right now, allow that to kinda be an unprocessed traumas that maybe we're looking at life through these lenses that maybe we're unaware that we are and using the physical symptoms as, okay. Where can I peel away the bullshit? Where can I show up authentically? Mhmm. And how we can peel back shame to help us fully express ourselves because how great does it feel to be able to express yourself and then to be held by something greater? Like, how that effect feels on your nervous system, just even noticing the lightness in your body when you feel that. So thank you so much, Michelle. So excited for this episode to come out. It was my pleasure. You've been listening to TMI talk with your host, doctor Mary Grimberg. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about Doctor. Mary, head on over to drmarygrenberg.com, and make sure to follow Doctor. Mary at Doctor. MaryPT on all social channels. To learn more about Doctor. Mary's integrative practice for pain relief in Austin, Texas, head on over to resilientrx.com. Thanks for listening.